UKC Forums - suggestion to UKC on juding major shows.

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-- suggestion to UKC on juding major shows. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928336342)

Posted by Todd K / UKC on 10-10-2013 02:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
I spent my high school career in FFA, on the school livestock judging team....and we had to "pick the best animal" and then justify our choices by giving the REASON that animal A placed above animal B.

Now I don't show dogs, but I do judge a fair amount of bench shows. I know that it is common for a UKC Bench show judge to simply pick a winner, and not offer one sentence that would justify that choice.

I think it is high time that judges step up to the microphone and explain to all of the "other judges" (those that are spectating) why they made the decision that they made. Now that doesn't mean that those decisions will always be "right"....but at least we would know what in the world was going on in their heads!

Joe...I think about that all the time. Without a doubt what FFA is teaching and requiring in regards to reasons is right on track. Heck on college judging teams they are required to remember the reasons they placed a specific class the way they did a month ago! Every animal in the class!

If we required reasons at that level it would improve the quality of our judging dramatically in my opinion....and we would lose 2/3 of our judges.

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Posted by Cynthia on 10-10-2013 02:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
....If we required reasons at that level it would improve the quality of our judging dramatically in my opinion....and we would lose 2/3 of our judges.

I dont know what to say (actually I do, but it might PO someone). but that line of reasoning could actually be a good thing (weeding out bsj) or a bad thing (tougher time find bsj).

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Posted by Buckshot on 10-10-2013 03:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd K / UKC

If we required reasons at that level it would improve the quality of our judging dramatically in my opinion....and we would lose 2/3 of our judges.

IMO, that statement right speaks volumes of what UKC's opinion of their BS Judges are.

Posted by blocksporthound on 10-10-2013 03:29 PM:

This is the best idea I have read to date! Even with a three judge panel you don't know what they are actually thinking and why they made a choice. I show AKC almost every weekend and deal with the nepotism and politics that will never go away. This right here will separate that from the UKC and the win will be held in higher esteem IMHO. The judge will have to publically point out the reasoning behind his or her decision. It might be an uncomfortable position to be in as a judge but it will eliviate these types of threads. There won't be a question in anyones mind as to why the winner was indeed the winner. Very very refreshing and workable approach!! Less of a statue contest and more of judging breeding stock which is what it is supposed to be! You are looking and rightly picking apart the dams and sires of the future generation. They should be scrutinized and it should not be political or display nepotism. The AKC is riddled with this behavior and it is very discouraging. I know people wanting to switch to UKC but if they see the cutthroat politics they will disappear quickly.

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Posted by Todd K / UKC on 10-10-2013 04:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blocksporthound
This is the best idea I have read to date! Even with a three judge panel you don't know what they are actually thinking and why they made a choice. I show AKC almost every weekend and deal with the nepotism and politics that will never go away. This right here will separate that from the UKC and the win will be held in higher esteem IMHO. The judge will have to publically point out the reasoning behind his or her decision. It might be an uncomfortable position to be in as a judge but it will eliviate these types of threads. There won't be a question in anyones mind as to why the winner was indeed the winner. Very very refreshing and workable approach!! Less of a statue contest and more of judging breeding stock which is what it is supposed to be! You are looking and rightly picking apart the dams and sires of the future generation. They should be scrutinized and it should not be political or display nepotism. The AKC is riddled with this behavior and it is very discouraging. I know people wanting to switch to UKC but if they see the cutthroat politics they will disappear quickly.

Good post! I agree.

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Posted by Todd K / UKC on 10-10-2013 04:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
IMO, that statement right speaks volumes of what UKC's opinion of their BS Judges are.

That is not a statement directed at "our" bench show judges. That is a statement that applies to any and all judging where a judge is not required to give reasons to substantiate their selection. And again, that is my opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of my employer! lol

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Posted by 1nighthunter on 10-10-2013 06:08 PM:

You know what they call a basement full of bench showers

A wine cellar

Sorry I just could not resist

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Posted by H. L. Meyer on 10-11-2013 03:22 PM:

Good buddy

I WINE CELLAR is where they store the best they have: what U think now guru.
One mistake I think may be overlooked is this. Maybe we need two classes of bench shows one for the BIG TIME you know the B/4 then 0ne for the little club shows because I GARONTEE YOU there is no way to incorporate the FFA idea into ALL UKC bench show judging period.
Now while it is on my mind 2 things comes up 1- If anyone thinks AKC gives two hoots in a hollow about COON HOUNDS just open your eyes and by the way if you think this years winner was picked by the way it moved on the ground then I sure missed something you could not even see it's feet O well. 2- UKC is headed down the road that will do away with the benches open your eyes and look around to what is being catered to today meaning how many coon hunters did you see showing at A/O hard to make a man run around and look like a $%%^^&*& did U get a questionair? . In my opinion U K C would like nothing more than to run all shows along their conformation format you see MR Wayne can tell the direction coon hunting is going this day and time. If you are ever going to judge the BIG BENCH SHOWS then you will judge along a certin format. JOIN OR BE LEFT BEHIND. Save me a seat please. J M O H L meyer

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Posted by okietreedog on 10-11-2013 07:00 PM:

lol

I am partial to the FFA judging way. I have done one dog show this way boy did people get mad they do not seem to want to hear the faults of their dogs. Course being a vocational ag teacher i may not be very impartial.

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Posted by Jake Appel on 10-12-2013 03:03 AM:

The people on the sidelines that critique judge's decisions are often unable to see the most important part....the gait. What is seen on the bench is one thing, but how they move is very important. I have judged dogs that looked outstanding on the bench, but had major issues on the ground. I would be okay with UKC removing the bench from the shows.

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Posted by H. L. Meyer on 10-12-2013 12:22 PM:

Sounds to me like

You see the big picture, But the front seat is already full. ALSO how would you advertise the event? sure can't call it a confotmation show or can you? Now that brings to my mind a question about movement on the ground. How would movement on the ground come into play with a 3 legged dog and by the way how would a dog be judged when a person showing the dog was on crutches let alone in a wheel chair as in A/O this year.
Jake Appel my question to you is simple Why don't you forger about the BENCH SHOWS and suport the U K C conformation shows you know they don't use benches there. And one other thing DO YOU REALY THINK THE LOCAL CLUBS WILL CONTINUE OFFERING SHOWS IF THE BENCHES ARE NO LONGER USED.?

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Posted by georgef072007 on 10-12-2013 02:10 PM:

giving reasons

Well, I never hesitate to tell entrants why their dog was not selected to be the class, breed or b o s winner if they ask me. As far as doing it without being asked, I never do that because I am generally more concerned with getting the paperwork finished so I can get my dog entered in the night hunt. As far as the show dog people and the "wine cellar" goes, I have seen just as much whining (if not more ) from hunters not wanting to take their minus when they deserve it. At least "most" of the bench show people will accept what you tell them is wrong with their dogs if you politely explain it to them (you may have to explain in detail to some of the more novice ones) , but over all the sportsmanship is generally better there. Probably because they are in front of a room full of people and don't want to look like an a##, but for whatever reason this is, as a BSJ I appreciate their restraint and overall politeness.

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 10-12-2013 05:45 PM:

Re: Sounds to me like

quote:
Originally posted by H. L. Meyer
You see the big picture, But the front seat is already full. ALSO how would you advertise the event? sure can't call it a confotmation show or can you? Now that brings to my mind a question about movement on the ground. How would movement on the ground come into play with a 3 legged dog and by the way how would a dog be judged when a person showing the dog was on crutches let alone in a wheel chair as in A/O this year.
Jake Appel my question to you is simple Why don't you forger about the BENCH SHOWS and suport the U K C conformation shows you know they don't use benches there. And one other thing DO YOU REALY THINK THE LOCAL CLUBS WILL CONTINUE OFFERING SHOWS IF THE BENCHES ARE NO LONGER USED.?

Local clubs will not support a show with no benches. Just pure and simple fact. For me, one judge in the ring is enough. I don't have a problem telling why I picked a dog, but when you are talking an Autumn Oaks size event, which already has a tendency to run long, add a long winded judge, and now you are making a 3:00 PM finish, a 4-5 Pm finish. That would force the show to be stopped for cast draws outs, or the draw outs would have to be done in another area which adds to the confusion of where folks need to be. Nope, I think the way it is is fine. It has worked this way for how many years now? Change for sake of change is simply wrong, and it is not broke, so why bother? JMO, but an educated one. I'm not sure others on here have thought things out and really want what they are asking for.

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Posted by Pat Bizich on 10-13-2013 01:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
Joe...I think about that all the time. Without a doubt what FFA is teaching and requiring in regards to reasons is right on track. Heck on college judging teams they are required to remember the reasons they placed a specific class the way they did a month ago! Every animal in the class!

If we required reasons at that level it would improve the quality of our judging dramatically in my opinion....and we would lose 2/3 of our judges.

Some time ago I remember it was actually a statement put in the rules by UKC that judges should make oral comments as to why they were selecting a particular winner.
For the next few years I do remember judges at A.O's making oral comments.
For some reason it has fell by .
I have made oral comments ever since it was told we were to do so when judging.
One thing is to make the assessments in away as to not embarrass the dogs owners not chosen.The spectators as well as the handlers know why a particular dog was chosen.I will also go the the losing handler on real close calls and individually explain why they did not win.

It would really be a wonderful thing if future judges of AO ,World show,Grand America and the Winter Classic were instructed that part of their duties as a judge at those events were to make oral comments behind their choices.

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