UKC Forums - new rules let's discuss likes and dislikes

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-- new rules let's discuss likes and dislikes (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928332048)

Posted by shane_atchison on 08-08-2013 09:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
See the other kennel club that has many of these rules has a proposal on the table for 90 minute hunts siting lack of hunting ground and safety.

I would vote for 90min. hunts if it were a proposal. Now that there will be a countdown it will be a lot easier to tell the dominate dog.

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Posted by dawgg03 on 08-08-2013 10:06 PM:

Use garmin

Anything on them or the new alpha?

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I use Sunfire lights

Posted by rweller on 08-09-2013 04:34 AM:

Re: Use garmin

quote:
Originally posted by dawgg03
Anything on them or the new alpha?

NO, the ones that are on here is it.

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Posted by dawgg03 on 08-09-2013 05:06 AM:

Thanks

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I use Sunfire lights

Posted by K. Singletary on 08-09-2013 02:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shane_atchison
Now that there will be a countdown it will be a lot easier to tell the dominate dog.

Well, we will have to disagree on that. In all my experience hunting with the countdown it is more of a handler tool to decide how many points he wants to risk, has very little to do with the dog. I'd say as many dogs win by their handler waiting and taking a quarter on a questional sounding tree as anything else when hunting with a countdown. Most people only look at what happens if a tree is plussed, but what happens when a tree is minused with only 2 dogs on it. 1 dog is holding 1st tree, the other dog's handler waited and took 25. So now, the dog that covered a slick tree is only minused 25 where in UKC he would be minused 75. IMO the count down only promotes independance, which I don't think should be promoted with the shrinking of hunting land that is taking place nationwide and the amount of game cams that are all over the woods. These things will only lead to problems in the future.

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Posted by rweller on 08-09-2013 03:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shane_atchison
I would vote for 90min. hunts if it were a proposal. Now that there will be a countdown it will be a lot easier to tell the dominate dog.

Let me tell everyone this

THESE ARE JUST PROPOSALS. They have NOT been voted on yet.

They will be voted on by each breed Association at Autumn Oaks.

The proposals that pass will go into effect Jan. 1 2014

I will aslo say the last time the coutdown on the tree was in the proposals it FAILED.

Posted by Billy George on 08-09-2013 03:56 PM:

Do all associations have to vote yes to pass a rule change, or is it a percentage thing?

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Posted by shane_atchison on 08-09-2013 04:31 PM:

Independence?

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
Well, we will have to disagree on that. IMO the count down only promotes independance, which I don't think should be promoted with the shrinking of hunting land that is taking place nationwide and the amount of game cams that are all over the woods. These things will only lead to problems in the future.

I have no idea how to respond to that. IMO the count down only promotes independence also. It would be interesting to see the # of dogs titled in 2013 vs. the # of dogs titled in 2014 if the rule change happens though. The price$ and quality of a titled hound should easily double.

__________________
Shane

Posted by K. Singletary on 08-09-2013 06:11 PM:

Re: Independence?

quote:
Originally posted by shane_atchison
The price$ and quality of a titled hound should easily double.

Wow, that's a lot of stock you put in a rule change. I just don't see it. It's not like this is a brand new, never used rule. Other registries have been using it for years, where is the improvement?

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Posted by mike mizell on 08-09-2013 06:14 PM:

i like the count down rule.
it works well with the stock of dogs i hunt.it dosent have that much to do with independence.
my dog can move a track.it aint his fault if the other dogs beat it to death and cant keep up.

Posted by shane_atchison on 08-09-2013 07:24 PM:

Re: Re: Independence?

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
Wow, that's a lot of stock you put in a rule change. I just don't see it. It's not like this is a brand new, never used rule. Other registries have been using it for years, where is the improvement?

Yes it is. I see it. Its in black n white (me-to babbling cover dogs will have lost there big advantage thus makin it a lot harder to get titled) Other reg. have used it for years, hunt a me-to babbling cover dog there & let me know how much money you win.

__________________
Shane

Posted by Billy George on 08-09-2013 07:49 PM:

The babbler will get you every time, a count down won't solve that...

Posted by K. Singletary on 08-09-2013 08:02 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Independence?

quote:
Originally posted by shane_atchison
Yes it is. I see it. Its in black n white (me-to babbling cover dogs will have lost there big advantage thus makin it a lot harder to get titled) Other reg. have used it for years, hunt a me-to babbling cover dog there & let me know how much money you win.

So when did they quit hunting babbling dogs over there....Any time a babbler can strike for 100 he is gaining an advantage, especially in an hour hunt where 1st strike will not likely open up again the entire hunt.

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Posted by mike mizell on 08-09-2013 09:50 PM:

looks like some folks are gonna be changing their breeding program up.lol

Posted by Billy George on 08-09-2013 10:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mike mizell
looks like some folks are gonna be changing their breeding program up.lol

Naw just have to beat the crap out of your dogs for covering.....Man made independence gotta love it!!!

Posted by shane_atchison on 08-10-2013 12:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Billy George
The babbler will get you every time, a count down won't solve that...

4 dog cast- babbler 100strike to the north me-to 75strike to the north cover 50strike to the north after 2min. Coondog strikes n trees deep to the west will take the pack hunters a few min to get there. Babblers are at times hard to beat, however the countdown will help keep its undeserved tree points to a minimum.

__________________
Shane

Posted by RHBridges on 08-10-2013 01:11 AM:

proposals

like the count down as the some does it will stop me to cover dogs from tail gating coondogs a lot of folks i no bank there dog getting by themself hope this one passes thanks robert

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Posted by Gene Raines on 08-11-2013 04:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
Well, we will have to disagree on that. In all my experience hunting with the countdown it is more of a handler tool to decide how many points he wants to risk, has very little to do with the dog. I'd say as many dogs win by their handler waiting and taking a quarter on a questional sounding tree as anything else when hunting with a countdown. Most people only look at what happens if a tree is plussed, but what happens when a tree is minused with only 2 dogs on it. 1 dog is holding 1st tree, the other dog's handler waited and took 25. So now, the dog that covered a slick tree is only minused 25 where in UKC he would be minused 75. IMO the count down only promotes independance, which I don't think should be promoted with the shrinking of hunting land that is taking place nationwide and the amount of game cams that are all over the woods. These things will only lead to problems in the future.

Kenny I don't get your way of thinking on this...

All this does is eliminate the dog that covers for 75 after 4:59 and all he gets is 25 now, which in my opinion needs a switch for covering. I hate a late backing *** dog. If they are running a track together he will get his 75 on the track, but don't quit doing nothing to come cover my tree late and expect to get 75. I hate that. And you see it in this KC the worst.

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Posted by Gene Raines on 08-11-2013 04:58 AM:

25 and 125 beats the babbling 100/25 all night in my calculations...
Even the 75/125 will beat the 100/quick backing babbler 75..

Have tried to get the other KC to up their tree points to 125 for a while now with no success because with the strike and tree the same the babbler has an advantage. But with more on the tree points it cuts back on the babblers advantage. The only way a babbler can beat you with this setup is if he trees a coon on his on in which the countdown means nothing for you in this setuo anyways.

Posted by Amish Mafia on 08-11-2013 05:59 AM:

Yes to all the proposed changes. Especially #1 YES.... Lets get rid of the me 2 culls that show up at the tree 4 minutes after the coon was treed and still end up with 75 points when they had no part in treeing the coon but are stealing points they don't deserve.... 25 points is plenty for the dog that didn't tree the coon.

Imagine you are at work on the job stacking lumber and you finish your task 4 minutes ahead for your coworker, your coworker shows up to help you stack the lumber 4 minutes after you have completed the task... This happens all day long while you are at work and your supervisor is watching you and your coworker the entire time, who do you think the supervisor will give credit for stacking the lumber, you ? Or the coworker that showed up 4 minutes late ? Your coworker is a me 2 bum and so is a dog that shows up at any tree after 2 minutes.

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Posted by Dirtdevil on 08-11-2013 11:03 AM:

The rules should be fair enough so that any style of dog that is consistant and competitive can win .... it's not for us to try and tweak rules that are unfair to a dog that isn't " our" style .. if someone likes a me-too dog , a loaner , a tree grabber or whatever ... and they pay the entry fee then they should get a fair shake .

The rules that you like and give you the edge , may make it miserable for two of your neighbors .... hard to promote the nite hunts and winning if the rules aren't fair to some... it just makes for more rule proposals the next time around.

A consistant dog that is competitive will hold his own over several turnouts .. maybe he barely wins over a dog you don't like instead of blowing him out .. so what , what's it to you if a dog you don't have to feed is a close second or wins a few hunts ?

Too many of these rules are about trying to manipulate the game .. instead of making it fair .

If you have a babbler , turn them loose away from any timber or water and let the judge dog his job if the dog hops the fence barking ... the rules can't do the judges job for him or give him the spine he needs .... seems like it's easier to quote a rule and console a guy getting minused than to just give it to him straight.

Awarding more points for a dog that split trees , or one that babbles , or one that is a loner , or packs .... that's not a level playing field ... just because you think it's worth more points for a dog doing the same thing , just in a different style ... don't mean it needs to be a rule ... that's not fair , it's needing a handicap to ensure your dog wins.

It's just running and treeing coon ... it don't take but a few rules to figure out which dog in the cast is the winner ... those rules and subrules are so the handlers can be the winners even if the dog aint.

Posted by georgef072007 on 08-11-2013 02:11 PM:

I like rule 6 ( the add rule part about aggression towards handlers), other than that I think the rules we have are fine so leave them alone. I know that the other KC has this rule and that rule to minus out the competition , get them scratched, or shorten up the tree points and that sounds good to the cut throat hunters so they should be supporting the other KC every chance they get. I don't care for that style of hunting, and I know several people that don't care for the more laid back style of hunting with UKC's current rules but at least for now we all have a place to go hunt where we like the rules. I've been told for a long time that coon hunters are a dying breed and from what I've been seeing around here that's a pretty accurate statement , I don't think we need more rules to help get rid of the less serious about winning type of hunter that's just out there to have fun and hunt his less than perfect dog hoping to get lucky and get a plastic trophy or maybe title his dog eventually. As far as getting beat by a "me too" dog or a "babbler" in UKC, well, yes it does happen from time to time, but let me say this. If I can't beat you with the dog I have, regardless of the rules or the KC involved , as a serious hunter I shouldn't be worried about changing the rules to help me win. I need to be changing dogs instead.

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Posted by Rip on 08-17-2013 08:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
Well, we will have to disagree on that. In all my experience hunting with the countdown it is more of a handler tool to decide how many points he wants to risk, has very little to do with the dog. I'd say as many dogs win by their handler waiting and taking a quarter on a questional sounding tree as anything else when hunting with a countdown. Most people only look at what happens if a tree is plussed, but what happens when a tree is minused with only 2 dogs on it. 1 dog is holding 1st tree, the other dog's handler waited and took 25. So now, the dog that covered a slick tree is only minused 25 where in UKC he would be minused 75. IMO the count down only promotes independance, which I don't think should be promoted with the shrinking of hunting land that is taking place nationwide and the amount of game cams that are all over the woods. These things will only lead to problems in the future.

I believe this man has been in a hunt or two LOL.

Yes good smart defense with the countdown happens more than the countdown actually helping the dog that trees first. Face it, if it's a good hot track and they come on it right and are together then everybody is going on the paper, sometimes all four will go on the paper when there are only 2 dogs there

That's what happens when the countdown is going to go against somebody, especially if it is only one out and they think he is close enough to the tree or deep enough in that nobody will be able to say for sure the dog wasn't there when called.

BUT when they are all not acting right the first one to tree may even have a stationary put on it and when he finally trees then everybody else waits until they are only risking 25.

Same thing at the end of the hunt with a lead, if somebody knows they have it OK unless the tree is minused they will just lay back to make sure it doesn't get them.

Defense is used probably as much as offense in this game to be sure.

That said I personally like the countdown, but he makes a very good point regardless of my personal feelings on the countdown.

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Posted by jaw72 on 08-18-2013 04:16 AM:

rule changes

The hunts are having less and less entries now. If we start having all these rule changes, more pleasure hunts will quit coming.. Soon clubs won't be able to make enough to keep the doors open and we won't have any hunts and won't have to worry about the rules!

Posted by K. Singletary on 08-18-2013 05:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Gene Raines
Kenny I don't get your way of thinking on this...

All this does is eliminate the dog that covers for 75 after 4:59 and all he gets is 25 now, which in my opinion needs a switch for covering. I hate a late backing *** dog. If they are running a track together he will get his 75 on the track, but don't quit doing nothing to come cover my tree late and expect to get 75. I hate that. And you see it in this KC the worst.

So you dont think a dog that covers a slick tree after 4 minutes deserves 75- you think they only deserve 25-. You guys act like every tree is plussed when in the real world less than 1/2 are plussed. By using the countdown you increase a handlers opportunity to avoid minus, I know for a fact if my dog isnt treed right on a tree in short order Im waiting now hoping to get 25 without the countdown with the countdown 25 is guaranteed. Why should that be a handler option?

Instead of a countdown Id rather see the tree closed after 2 or 3 minutes. That way the dog that trees 2nd gets what it deserves good or bad and the handler doesnt have the ability to avoid taking 2nd when it doesnt sound right. This would also give the cover dogs less time to get there.

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