UKC Forums - New School vs. Old School

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-- New School vs. Old School (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928330862)

Posted by LIL-E on 08-01-2013 12:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
I have never seen a dog that stayed packed very long if it is hunted hard by itself. I hunt one dog at a time so most of mine do their own thing in a cast. I hate a dead loaner the ones that will run a track with the other dogs but then not tree with them need shot.

I agree!

Posted by eric henry on 08-01-2013 01:39 AM:

i like'em lonely.

Posted by Mark V. on 08-01-2013 03:26 AM:

no dog is not going to be the fastest dog on the ground every night out, so if they are on the same track i want mine to get in on some of it but I like them split most of the time. I do not beat mine for backing. I like to get the most out of a hound with out tring to change the genetics.

Posted by jculler8 on 08-01-2013 06:54 AM:

I don't really know percentages, but I believe a lot in how one trains a hound to hunt in the hunts depends what part of the country that dog is from.

As a trainer of dogs that I hunt all over, but mostly where I live, I want them to take the first track and be on the tree first whether they are by their self or with company, but I sure as heck don't want no 4 minute packing fool.

A lot also depends on the dog. A man made dog is easily beatable in the hunts.

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Posted by pamjohnson on 08-01-2013 01:44 PM:

old school

I like a dog that can tree its own coon with or without help. I have no desire to breed or train a dog to be a complete loaner. actually to be honest I have seen nicer metoo dogs then I ever saw loaners.

Posted by John D on 08-01-2013 02:10 PM:

Whether they tend to pack or tend to be alone has nothing to do with being able to tree a coon alone. They ALL should be able to consistently tree their own coon.

I'm old school. I want a dog to hit the woods with treeing coons on its mind and the ability to do it quick and do it well. If they strike a coon and other dogs are around, I want them to be able to tree it and do it better than most. That usually will result in a 1st tree.

If they strike a coon and the other dogs go somewhere else, then the same dog may end up treed, alone. They need to be able to stay treed with other dogs trailing around and away, and perhaps getting treed nearby. If all dogs strike and they can't move the track, I like one that can suck that track out from under the other dogs and fall treed 400 yards away. I like one that will fall out from a hot race to tree that one lone kitten coon that climbed. I want to be able to score that coon and turn my dog loose back to the pack and have it tree their coon, too.

I believe that most "independent" dogs are culls. They may be independent but they lack ability to tree a coon. This shows up in different ways. Perhaps they actually go hunting with other dogs, wait til the other dogs tree, then they try to find another coon close. If the other dogs slicked, this kind of dog will often end up under the coon and win. If the other dogs tree real coons, this kind of dog can't win. I see independent dogs that are tight on ground that cover ground, bird-dogging for a coon. They'll go past a coon a hundred yards away, hit a treeline or a creek and follow it a half mile to find an easy one. I've seen independent dogs go into a tree where another dog was treed, and then trail away, trying to pull the dog that's treed. I have personally seen dogs that were known to be independent, come dragging in to a tree, LATE, where 1 or more dogs was treed and had a coon. These kinds of independence are a brand new trait that's being bred for, just for the scorecard. Only the diehard comp. hunters and the wannabe's that follow them wants this in a dog for the scorecard. No real coonhunter wants this.

So, I breed for coontreeing ability. That means sometimes they are alone, sometimes they trail away from slick treed dogs, sometimes they take a track off on their own. The goal is to always be under the first coon treed.

I will do some training if needed. I'll get after a dog if it comes into another dog's tree, after I'm there. By then they had plenty of time to check that tree and more often than not a dog that does that is a dog that couldn't work, or quit his own track. They got a fault I'm trying to fix. What I really want is to be at MY tree scoring a coon, while YOURS is out jacking around....

jmo.

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Posted by Jackson87 on 08-01-2013 04:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by duvall
I like a dog that out runs the pack on any kind of track and trees accurately, he also needs to split when others make a mistake, in other words a dog that thinks for its self will make less mistakes.....Jeff

That's the kind I like.One that can steal a track from another dog and get parked under that coon quick.In the cold winter months is when this kinda dog will really shine.

Posted by HOBO on 08-01-2013 04:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by duvall
I like a dog that out runs the pack on any kind of track and trees accurately, he also needs to split when others make a mistake, in other words a dog that thinks for its self will make less mistakes.....Jeff

I like this answer...

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Posted by Todd K / UKC on 08-01-2013 04:45 PM:

Pretty interesting. Only four people that responded that sounds like would be classified as new school by the definitions above.

Do you think 20 years ago the percentage of hunters that wanted loners was even less? Do you think 20 years from now the percentage of hunters that want loners will be significantly higher than today? What role did the rules play in that?

As we are fast approaching a rule change session, the thought of how a set of rules affects the way dogs work is both very interesting and a cause for serious consideration. We want dogs to do their own work, but yet not create (bred or trained) dogs that will be independent to a fault. Not as easy as it sounds.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 08-01-2013 04:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
Pretty interesting. Only four people that responded that sounds like would be classified as new school by the definitions above.

Do you think 20 years ago the percentage of hunters that wanted loners was even less? Do you think 20 years from now the percentage of hunters that want loners will be significantly higher than today? What role did the rules play in that?

As we are fast approaching a rule change session, the thought of how a set of rules affects the way dogs work is both very interesting and a cause for serious consideration. We want dogs to do their own work, but yet not create (bred or trained) dogs that will be independent to a fault. Not as easy as it sounds.

Todd just change the strike rule and nobody could complain about getting beat

strike em for 50 boys!

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Posted by berger on 08-01-2013 05:04 PM:

I want one that will let pups keep with him and hunt with him. But I want them also smart enough that when I take them road running for 2 miles that week there smart enough to know there is a hunt coming up and they need to be a loner with 2 looking down at them that weekend

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Posted by Rob Reid on 08-01-2013 07:18 PM:

I like to see speed & accuracy! Here is a thought, how about only awarding 125 points when all available dogs are competing for first tree any other time 1st tree gets 100 points. Point in case 3 dogs tree a coon 10 min into the hunt while one hound is still hunting. After waiting 5 minutes on tree then walking several minutes to the tree then shining upto 10 minutes, dog D has had a lot of additional time to tree a coon without competition.

Posted by john Duemmer on 08-01-2013 07:46 PM:

I think a great deal of the differences in the type of hound a guy likes has to do with geographical differences and coon population. I live in an area with lots of coon and nice flat ground so i have no use for a hound that wastes a hour trailing up a cold track, a hot nosed dog that covers ground and slams the hot ones is much more productive.
I think the main reason we see more independent dogs in the hunts today is because of the way they are hunted during the week. 40 years ago when i started it was not uncommon for 2 guys to cut 4 dogs togeather, the 4 would usually consist of 1 coondog a couple pups and 1 cull. Today those same 2 huntin buddys get togeather and hunt 2 dogs one at a time. Instead of singleing them out at 3 years old we have these young dogs doing it alone at a year and thats what creates independence.
Those days of cutting a pack loose with friends are fond memories and like most fond memories those dogs have gotten better through the years since they have died.
I read all the time on here about the great dogs of the past and the junk being bred today, guys i was there and the dogs we are hunting today are much better, they start younger, tree harder, not near as trashy, and a much higher percentage of todays litters turn into a dog that trees coons.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 08-01-2013 08:02 PM:

I guess that makes me the old guy from the new school, every time i cut my dog loose i want him to hunt like hes the only dog in the woods, with absolutly nothing on his mind other than gettin parked under a coon. If you want to adjust the rules to reward the coontreer in the cast, eliminate the loose mouthed dogs, and make the judges job easier..STRIKE EM ALL FOR 50.

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Posted by Cry Tough Blues on 08-01-2013 09:39 PM:

I like a lot of John said. When its time to go to town what I want is all mine and some of yours although it doesn't always happen lol

Posted by Riverbottom Ron on 08-01-2013 09:47 PM:

OLD SCHOOL

IM OLD SCHOOL,A COONDOG IS A MUST FOR ME .I WANT A DOG THAT PERFORMS I WANT A FIRST STRIKE DOG AND A FIRST TREE DOG AND ACCOMPLISH THAT WITH COMPANY OF OTHER HOUNDS OR IF HE HAS TO DO IT HIS SELF TREE AND HAVE THE COON .THE INDEPENDENT DOGS ARE FOR THE COMP HUNTER THAT WANTS TO WIN AND RACK UP AS MANY POINTS BY HIS SELF AS FAST AS IT CAN AND DOESNT MATTER HOW FAR IT HAS TO GO TO DO IT ..IM JUST A OLE COUNTRY BOY THAT ENJOYS LISTENIN TO HIS AND BUDDYS DOGS WORK A TRACK AND GET TREED AND NOW DAYS PREFER THEM NOT TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY TO DO IT ...THIS IS A GOOD THREAD MR TODD ,,HAVE A BLESSED ONE ,,,FROM THE RIVERBOTTOM ,,,RON

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Posted by Erik Fisher on 08-01-2013 10:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
Pretty interesting. Only four people that responded that sounds like would be classified as new school by the definitions above.

Do you think 20 years ago the percentage of hunters that wanted loners was even less? Do you think 20 years from now the percentage of hunters that want loners will be significantly higher than today? What role did the rules play in that?

As we are fast approaching a rule change session, the thought of how a set of rules affects the way dogs work is both very interesting and a cause for serious consideration. We want dogs to do their own work, but yet not create (bred or trained) dogs that will be independent to a fault. Not as easy as it sounds.

I'm not sure I understand these definitions of old school and new school on this topic as I remember most of the dogs that really won when I was much younger were very independent then too. Example: I can remember reading an article about Bob and Eddy Parker talking about Nelson's Radar (world champ that year) and Bluegrass Amos ( purina race winner that year when it was as hardcore as it gets) and them saying that when they hunted the two together through the week they NEVER treed together.

Posted by jculler8 on 08-02-2013 03:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Fisher
I'm not sure I understand these definitions of old school and new school on this topic as I remember most of the dogs that really won when I was much younger were very independent then too. Example: I can remember reading an article about Bob and Eddy Parker talking about Nelson's Radar (world champ that year) and Bluegrass Amos ( purina race winner that year when it was as hardcore as it gets) and them saying that when they hunted the two together through the week they NEVER treed together.

Most of the bigger hunts I have done well at, my dog treed some with the other dogs and then always split off with a cpl coon by herself.

To me, from definition, that would be a combination of both new and old school.

The good ones know when to pack up and when to get off by theirself.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 08-02-2013 05:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cry Tough Blues
I like a lot of John said. When its time to go to town what I want is all mine and some of yours although it doesn't always happen lol

LOL case in point. What if some of mine is a slick treer? What if some of mine is a possum treer? Still want some of Tom, Freds, and Jakes?

See if you bring one that only works off its own brain you don't have to worry about all the bs. I know when I un snap mine where they will be. Not a better feeling in coon hunting, win or lose.

Posted by josh on 08-02-2013 06:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
Most of the bigger hunts I have done well at, my dog treed some with the other dogs and then always split off with a cpl coon by herself.

To me, from definition, that would be a combination of both new and old school.

The good ones know when to pack up and when to get off by theirself.

I think you are right....Its just something that has been taken to the extreme.

Most casts are won or lost on less than 1 coon.

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Posted by josh on 08-02-2013 06:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
LOL case in point. What if some of mine is a slick treer? What if some of mine is a possum treer? Still want some of Tom, Freds, and Jakes?

See if you bring one that only works off its own brain you don't have to worry about all the bs. I know when I un snap mine where they will be. Not a better feeling in coon hunting, win or lose.

A good dog will do the right thing more often than not....A good dog will keep going when the others pull up short or tree off game.

The 100% loner don't have to be so smart or fast, he isn't competing with anything.

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Posted by Cry Tough Blues on 08-02-2013 08:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
LOL case in point. What if some of mine is a slick treer? What if some of mine is a possum treer? Still want some of Tom, Freds, and Jakes?

See if you bring one that only works off its own brain you don't have to worry about all the bs. I know when I un snap mine where they will be. Not a better feeling in coon hunting, win or lose.

Come on you know I was talking plus, why would anyone want a piece of another's minus. I am glad you KNOW where yours will be ,I know where I expect mine to be though that expectation isn't always met. Pretty easy to blow a dog up on the Internet. Don't you remember Mr. Money and ole death threat, didn't appear he was much of a threat off the internet

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 08-02-2013 09:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cry Tough Blues
Come on you know I was talking plus, why would anyone want a piece of another's minus. I am glad you KNOW where yours will be ,I know where I expect mine to be though that expectation isn't always met. Pretty easy to blow a dog up on the Internet. Don't you remember Mr. Money and ole death threat, didn't appear he was much of a threat off the internet

No need to get all riled up. Just a matter of opinions being different. I lose more then I win but I promise when I do win it isn't mooching points of others trees.

I can promise you few times does a pack of hounds actually work to get a coon treed. Last time I checked it only takes one dog to put a coon up a tree.

Posted by joeinmo on 08-02-2013 09:50 PM:

odd dog

one thing about the loaner dog I have noticed is it used to be a huge advantage because there was not as many and he had a skill that gave him a advantage and that's not true now. I was in a cast the other night and when we cut loose it was like a covey of quail dogs went every direction and got treed some were 300 yards some were 800 it was a mess by the time we got them rounded up the hunt was over half gone some dogs had been treed for 45 minutes in the heat and the only thing that was decided was whos dog got lucky and went the right direction. we moved and same thing happened. the other cast had dogs that were packing somewhat and there was one dog that donamated they scored on six coons they came in with a huge score and the most any dog in my cast treed on was 2 coons.

Posted by prostockpat on 08-02-2013 10:12 PM:

jmo......

where I LIVE AND HUNT......i want mine as INDEPENDENT and ACCURATE as possible!!! As long as there accurate,they'll hurt you when your leash locked all night and your splitting tree points.While the loner is alone with +125 all night!

My female is naturally independent.{she wants her own coon}
I won't beat a dog to be that way.To me that is wrong.If its in them its on them.If its not its not.

Michigan has coon!no need for "me too"/pack hunting.

I can't stand hearing a bunch of hounds chasing 1 coon, when the woods has a bunch more in it!!!

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