UKC Forums - Split tree ruling ??????

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-- Split tree ruling ?????? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928330525)

Posted by berger on 07-29-2013 07:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by WEBBER
He may have been??? but dog B was placed on the paper as being on A's tree. If it's not obvious, that is where dog B stays unless you know otherwise. I don't make the rules! See my previous post on UKC's ruling.

Yeah you had the answer right. I was just wanting to see if barker Creek could make a simple rule scoring hard again. rofl

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Posted by WEBBER on 07-29-2013 07:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by berger
Yeah you had the answer right. I was just wanting to see if barker Creek could make a simple rule scoring hard again. rofl

My bad, I failed to see you refered the question to barker.
Heck, give him another for good measure! I'll stay out of it.....

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Posted by barker-creek on 07-29-2013 07:44 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Barker Creek

quote:
Originally posted by berger
With A

it was a 3 dog cast

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Posted by barker-creek on 07-29-2013 07:49 PM:

Weber

Dog c was treed on paper with a also

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Posted by WEBBER on 07-29-2013 07:55 PM:

Re: Weber

quote:
Originally posted by barker-creek
Dog c was treed on paper with a also

Yep --- but once you arrived at the tree, you noticed that he was not on the "root" tree that A & B established. I can give you reasons why and you can give me reasons why not all day long, but only UKC can expalin why they chose to score it this way. And I believe they said this would be a consistent way. Maybe not fair in all cases, but consistent.

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Posted by barker-creek on 07-29-2013 08:48 PM:

Re: Re: Weber

quote:
Originally posted by WEBBER
Yep --- but once you arrived at the tree, you noticed that he was not on the "root" tree that A & B established. I can give you reasons why and you can give me reasons why not all day long, but only UKC can expalin why they chose to score it this way. And I believe they said this would be a consistent way. Maybe not fair in all cases, but consistent.

I found the old thread on hear and understand what you are saying now about the root tree! It ended up not making a difference but dog b could ve got the shaft in my cast

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Posted by Justin B on 07-30-2013 12:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by verdigris
dog A left -125
Dog B & C are split both tree in at 125

Wrong. Dog b was treed for 2nd and stays that way. The only way you move up tree points is with a split tree as in dog c's case. You minused A 125 you have used that position. This right here, people saying their dog was under the canopy so shouldn't be minused for being off the tree, and people thinking their dog has to stop to be minused for quiting a track are some things that amaze me.

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Posted by mleck on 07-30-2013 08:05 AM:

How do you know Dog B was not the dog split and Dog C came in finally covered Dog A before that dog left?

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Posted by Lee Stocking on 07-30-2013 10:18 AM:

Dogs are only split ten yards apart? Are we checking to see if they are all under one canopy and scored together or separate?

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 07-30-2013 01:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mleck
How do you know Dog B was not the dog split and Dog C came in finally covered Dog A before that dog left?

Read all of the posts on this thread and you will see the same question you just asked has been answered several times. The "root tree" is the main point. Is it correct? Maybe not but it is a consistent way of scoring in these situations. Being under the same canopy doesn't mean anything either, do the trees touch with a viable crossing point is what you look for. This time of the year the whole forest is basically under one canopy but that does not mean all of the trees touch.

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Posted by JiM on 07-30-2013 03:06 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
Read all of the posts on this thread and you will see the same question you just asked has been answered several times. The "root tree" is the main point. Is it correct? Maybe not but it is a consistent way of scoring in these situations. Being under the same canopy doesn't mean anything either, do the trees touch with a viable crossing point is what you look for. This time of the year the whole forest is basically under one canopy but that does not mean all of the trees touch. [/QUO Another way that is just as consistent and, in my opinion, much more fair to every dog in the cast is to just say ANYTIME THE FIRST DOG TREED LEAVES..... all the other dogs stay put on the card.
It is impossible to know what tree was left or which dog was split. So just minus the dog that leaves and score the rest where they went on the card. Fairest way for every dog.

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Posted by barker-creek on 07-30-2013 03:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
Read all of the posts on this thread and you will see the same question you just asked has been answered several times. The "root tree" is the main point. Is it correct? Maybe not but it is a consistent way of scoring in these situations. Being under the same canopy doesn't mean anything either, do the trees touch with a viable crossing point is what you look for. This time of the year the whole forest is basically under one canopy but that does not mean all of the trees touch. [/QUO Another way that is just as consistent and, in my opinion, much more fair to every dog in the cast is to just say ANYTIME THE FIRST DOG TREED LEAVES..... all the other dogs stay put on the card.
It is impossible to know what tree was left or which dog was split. So just minus the dog that leaves and score the rest where they went on the card. Fairest way for every dog.

AGREED!!!!! That is the most logical way

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Posted by JiM on 07-30-2013 03:41 PM:

Anytime you start using terms like "root tree" to interpret a rule, you have purty much screwed tha pooch.

Posted by ronald schultz on 07-30-2013 04:24 PM:

by the rules that i can find , i believe keep dogs at position on card

the best i think would be split 1st and 2nd between the 2

Posted by Lance Laymon on 07-30-2013 06:45 PM:

Jim, I believe that is basically what ukc is saying, but I believe the best thing would be to move all dogs up. It is not possible to know which dog treed with A.

Posted by mleck on 07-30-2013 06:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM Another way that is just as consistent and, in my opinion, much more fair to every dog in the cast is to just say ANYTIME THE FIRST DOG TREED LEAVES..... all the other dogs stay put on the card.
It is impossible to know what tree was left or which dog was split. So just minus the dog that leaves and score the rest where they went on the card. Fairest way for every dog. [/B]

if i were judgeing in this situation this is exactly how i would score and master of hounds would have to be the one to change it.

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 07-31-2013 02:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Anytime you start using terms like "root tree" to interpret a rule, you have purty much screwed tha pooch.

Jim, I agree with you but according to UKC's rules scoring anyother way is wrong. You are always going to have those who want to argue with any way you score a situation like this. So we go by the rules or not hunt. I am sure this is one of the most screwed up rules used and applied in the nite hunts.

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Posted by JiM on 07-31-2013 04:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
Jim, I agree with you but according to UKC's rules scoring anyother way is wrong. You are always going to have those who want to argue with any way you score a situation like this. So we go by the rules or not hunt. I am sure this is one of the most screwed up rules used and applied in the nite hunts.

I agree, that is why I said "IN MY OPINION", in my reply above. My opinion is worth exactly nothing when the rules are stated plainly. The problem is that this isn't very plain. Just read Allen G's explanation that is quoted in Webbers post on page 2 of this thread. I mean come on, That thing is so long you have to scroll 3 times just to read the whole thing. Any time it takes 1000 words or more to explain a rule, we are in big trouble. You get 10 good qualified UKC judges to read that rule interpretation, 5 of them will end up with a migraine and the other 5 will be arguing all night about what he meant.
Me, I'll prolly just go with what mleck said in his post above.

Posted by bcj1973 on 07-31-2013 05:28 AM:

"In my opinion" I would like to see the split tree rule written something like this:

In cases where all dogs are treed, all dogs will be scored in the order in which they were treed, to include an obvious split tree. In the event that a dog moves no dogs will be moved up on that particular tree, minus any dog(s) that are not showing treed. The only way that a dog moves up is if it is on an obvious split tree and treed as such or in cases where its not obvious until the judges arrival; the dog that is found to be split treed score with 125 (+-) or circle.

In cases of two or more dogs treed together and it is not clear which order the dogs were treed split tree points in accordance with the rules on the scorecard.

Give the lone dog the benefit of the doubt.

Bc we will never truly know which tree the dog that moved left. This seems to be fair. No need to move dogs up bc if a dog treed in for 1st and moved the dog is already being penalized (125-) and not to mention that position has already been used. In reality that dog did tree first but didn't hold his/her tree. Score em in order.

Bottom line score the dogs in the order that they are treed (+-) or circle accordingly and give credit/benefit of the doubt to the dog that is split (+-) or circle accordingly.

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