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-- History of Black & Tans in the World Hunt (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928329852)

GRNTCH Witch
NTCH Tucker These are out of (GRNTCH Badnews Kate)
NTCH ------ In south Ga. lost track of this one
DON'T KNOW HOW MANY WAS IN THIS LITTER
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GRNTCH King
GRNTCH Trip
GRNTCH Molly These are out of (GRNTCH Daisey)
NTCH Penny
NTCH In north Ga. can't remember his name
Ficka------was killed on a cast only needed a place to NTCH
7 PUPS
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Billy--- owner Roger Gurley if not NTCH he only needs a place.
Rocket Fuels Jewell-------I think she just made NTCH
These are out of (GRNTCH Panye's Black June)
4 PUPS THIS LITTER

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General-------Pleasure hunter owns him.
NTCH Major -These two pups are out of GRNTCH Whistlin Dixie
2 PUPS THIS LITTER
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Sam----Don Martin (These pups are 13 months old)
Syne---- Chris Mowen
---------- can't remember her name Jeff Nelson just bought her.
Charlie Brown----- We own him best pup we have owned yet.

Their are 3 more of these pups Chris Mowen nows where they are
These pups are out of NTCH May that just got hit on the rd.

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ROCKET FUEL HAS SIRED 38 PUPS

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" WHITE WATER KENNELS"
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"GR.NT.CH.CH HOLDING'S ROCKET FUEL"
2006 National GR. Nite CH. Black and TAN
2006 UKC World Coon Hound Championship High Scoring Black and Tan
2006 Ga. State Champion
2006 B&T Purina Breed Winner
2007 UKC World Coon Hound Championship High Scoring Black and Tan
2007 GA. State Youth Champion
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GRNTCH White Water's Pothole Penny
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GRNTCH Haynes' Whistlin Dixie
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"GRNTCH VALLEY CREEK BLACK OUT"
2010, 2011, 2012
Winter Classic High Scoring B&T Male
2009 Akc Black&tan Days Pup
Champion
Pkc Money Winner
2013 AKC Southern Heritage Hunt
(final four)
2014 Deep South Classic Grand Slam Event (final four)

Chris Haynes (706) 302-2910

Chris,

Thank you for your help. I greatly appreciate it.

__________________
330-763-4463
Dean Miller

How old is rocket fuel? And could you post his full ped?

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Andrew Jones
662-603-5924

GrNiteCh GrCh 'PR' Tree Slammin Magnum(Grnitech Tree Slammin Hammer x Grnitech Grch Black Creek Slamin Lucy HTX)
~2016 PKC Winter Classic Cast Winner

winners

One of my question for a good while now is why more folks dont breed to winners like , Rebel , Buddy ,and several other proven hounds that have walked the walk , think we as a breed big mind breeding so much , tryin to add what our hounds lack that we miss the whole point , just breed winners regardless of whether you like the owner or clique ..... And cull for what you want . Walkers guys do it , just watch when a nice one comes along they will have a mile long line of females backed up to him ....jmo

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ALLNITE BETTY (BTTB CANE X HILLS SOUTHERN LADY ) (sold)
Bad To The Bones Deuce's Wild (All Nite Rocko(Ace) X ALLNITE BETTY(CANE)
ALLNITE GOLD DIGGER (HUGHES BLACK GOLD (Hardrock)X ALLNITE BETTY(CANE)
Bad to the Bones Super Sam (Knuckles (Jet) X ALLNITE BETTY (CANE)

Chris there is another female in Ohio that is a nite ch out GrNt Kate!

quote:

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Originally posted by liberty hill
GRNTCH Witch
NTCH Tucker These are out of (GRNTCH Badnews Kate)
NTCH ------ In south Ga. lost track of this one
DON'T KNOW HOW MANY WAS IN THIS LITTER
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GRNTCH King
GRNTCH Trip
GRNTCH Molly These are out of (GRNTCH Daisey)
NTCH Penny
NTCH In north Ga. can't remember his name
Ficka------was killed on a cast only needed a place to NTCH
7 PUPS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Billy--- owner Roger Gurley if not NTCH he only needs a place.
Rocket Fuels Jewell-------I think she just made NTCH
These are out of (GRNTCH Panye's Black June)
4 PUPS THIS LITTER

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General-------Pleasure hunter owns him.
NTCH Major -These two pups are out of GRNTCH Whistlin Dixie
2 PUPS THIS LITTER
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sam----Don Martin (These pups are 13 months old)
Syne---- Chris Mowen
---------- can't remember her name Jeff Nelson just bought her.
Charlie Brown----- We own him best pup we have owned yet.

Their are 3 more of these pups Chris Mowen nows where they are
These pups are out of NTCH May that just got hit on the rd.

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ROCKET FUEL HAS SIRED 38 PUPS

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Full House Kennels
Home of The
LATE CH NITECH JOKERS LOUISIANA LOTTO R.I.P.
2009 ACHA OKLAHOMA STATE NITE HUNT CHAMPION CH GR NITECH PR. BEEBES PALE FACED PETE PUKEY
ACHA GR CH NITE CH .UKC CH NITE CH Okiesawyers' Queen of Diamonds ACHA 2009 Oklahoma State Leader
ACHA GRAND SHOW CH UKC CH PR. Fullhouses Okla Big Ticket
Feather Lite Lights
www.featherlitelights.com

The truth is , B&T guys and the ' off colored " breeds want to win .. but they want to prop up what they got and win with it .. that's why we talk about breeding and training so much ... you gotta be really sharp to breed a decent B&T , lol ... the Walker guys don't talk about it ... they just breed to high powered dogs or buy pups from em' and keep winning.

But , it's ok ... it don't mean there is anything wrong with doing it either way ... it takes all kinds to make the world go round' and we all have what like or need ... if not , it's out there if you wanna go and get it ... life is short , we could all stand less daydreaming about the next cross or what might win .. and get out and hunt and enjoy what we have ...

I enjoyed the talk Dirtdevil, Tell me what you know on Sunvalley Butch, And Rocky Mountain black doc.Why are some so concerned about cross breeding, when dogs like these have had a positive effect on the breed? your thoughts on cross breeding?

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L.Richard

517-605-3199

All the locals talk about Sunvalley Butch like I do my first pretty girlfriend ... just all around a cut above and competitive . His mother was half Walker and he sold for more money back in the day than top B&T's do now ...

Crossing is what makes breeds and keep them competitive ... all breeds , all species , all over the world , all the time.

In roosters and most livestock .. it's called a " nick" .. two families that cross and just work well ... if you can breed them back into each other then both lines stay on top a few more generations.

It's easy with livestock .. but with dogs just experimenting and raising and hunting is too much , and dog food it too high and we can't tie thirty dogs to blackjack trees anymore without getting into trouble.

Breeding in general is not for the poor man or small guy ... if you inbreed or outcross ... it's selection and culling that the successful ranches make their name on .

Those days are gone for us ... the Walker can outcross within the breed and so can English .... we can keep a nice dog with purebreds but that extra umph! and talent is slowing being bred toward the middle ground ..... it's breeding principles those Monks that bred St Bernards knew hundreds and hundreds of years ago ... we just got lazy and skipped paying our dues and are breeding dogs and selling puppies.

Folks might have done some real loose linebreeding back in the day when they had those studs we are wishing we had semen on ... but you didn't see guys breeding to a dead and gone stud like now ... Smokey , Hobo's Hoss , Ace , Buck II ... we are trying to recreate those dogs ... but they weren't inbreds , so how is inbreeding supposed to do it .. even on paper it don't make sense before the first litter is even born to have to cull.

It might be rambling .. but I type fast so nobody have a meltdown.

A wise man once said " the problem with the breed today is , DNA testing to prove parentage!"

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Get deep or Get Beat!

yeah ... and we're all getting old ! When folks tell those stories about the stemwinders of the past and then sneak in some of the episodes of their trash races and not running them down til' dawn ... everyone quits grinning and we get sleepy.

We used to hunt all night til' the hounds wore down and then drink coffee and tell stories til' the next morning ... go to work or the lake and then do it again the next night.

Now , after about two turnouts , everyone in the truck starts asking if we wanna make another one ...and the rest say ' oh , i don't care " ... when one guy mentions work the next day , everyone else is glad of it and chirps in that we all gotta pay them bills ....

You boys wanna good dog .. you gotta learn how to get away with catnaps at work ... when you get caught .. you just raise your head up and wrap it up with Amen !

That was a good post dirt devil. I try to hunt as much and as long as I can all year round. I go to work with an hr of sleep or less quite often. To me that's what coon hunting is all about. I figured it out quickly if I want my dogs to give me there best I have to give them the opportunity. I try my best to meet them half way. I think that's all we can do.

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Chris Nidy


Give me a call anytime and we can cut loose some black dogs. 330-553-0148

Interesting History

10 yrs. From 1983 thru 1992 UKC world hunts The BNT's in those yrs. placed 20 bnt's in the top 20 of the world hunt with 1 yr not having any place.

1993 thru 2002 there were 22 bnt's that placed in the top 20 with 1 yr. no dogs placing which was 2002.

2003 thru 2012 there were 9 dogs that placed in the top 20 with 5 yrs no dog placing.


In 1988 there were 6 BNT's that placed in the top 20 that was the most in the last 30 yrs. that was a 30% of the dogs in the top twenty. Now I have heard people say that we need more BNT's to go to the world hunt so we have better percentages of winning. Do you really think that 30% of entries were BNT's entered in 1988 world hunt.
In the last 15 yrs we have had a TRL with the percentages getting higher then in years past. In the last few yrs we have had dogs with All Grand 3 generation pedigrees. We have had pups advertised and sold with the TRL being dominant in there pedigrees over the last few years or and All Grand pedigree. We have a incentive fund for the world that was going to save the BNT breed. Since it has been implemented we had no dogs in the top 20.
Here is something we need to remember it takes quality over quantity and most importantly it takes a Coondog not a Paperdog!!

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Tree Jar'n Black and Tans
Home of Tree Jar'n Coonhound Kennels


319-201-8445

Interesting post, How ironic Dna will keep integrity in the competition world, And Dna will keep integrity with parentage.But is actually the demise of better dogs?

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L.Richard

517-605-3199

The DNA statement has been made by persons in all of the breeds.I think the "problem" is a tad deeper than that. Over the years the breeders have done so much culling that the good traits have gone with the bad. This question was posed to me years ago: Would you rather take a VW Bug and try to turn it into a hot rod or take the hot rod and "tame" it a little bit. I chose the latter of the two. I am not a good enough dog man to teach a dog to locate better or hunt deeper or pick it's head up faster. But I can teach that suped up young dog that off game hurts really bad.
Leon....you have stated that you are not a breeder or competition hunter....did Snap not win World ch B&T twice and reproduce a World Ch (Rumor)???? Pretty good odds for not being a breeder.JMO

Did you know that there was a B&T that got in the final4 at the PKC WORLD. The year Hillbilly Mac won it.he was from here in S.C. I walked behind that old dog pleasure hunting. All coon dog. Dogs name was ROCK

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BROKEN ROAD KENNEL
"God bless the broken road"
Doug and Cleo Bowers




PKC SCH UKC DUAL GRAND TOUCAN SAM SEMEN



Also home to;ACHA LWSCH 'PR' Kentucky River Mundar ~ Sire is Kentucky River Rowdy (frozen Semen) BMOB 2013 Winter Classic
House's Lipper Hope x Kentucky River Rowdy
Broken Road's LITTLE TEXAS
LIPPERS STYLISH ROOSTER AT STUD
LIPPERS LITTLE TEXAS AT STUD.

"The WILL of God will never take you where the GRACE of God can not protect you

Yes Buck I did say that I am not much of a breeder,also not a competition hunter. I like hunting a better hound, mine or someone elses I dont care.Sonny could you post the ped on style please.We all stray to what we like best, I like to coonhunt, Breeding is exspensive, and time consuming,Running the hunts as well.Interesting Question,why do people compete in hunts,to show the world what they got,Why do people breed coonhounds? to show the world what they got.My question is why do we not see more black dogs in major competition?

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L.Richard

517-605-3199

I think they " why" is like why chocolate over vanilla ... or why do we like to coonhunt and not play football or whatever ...

Alot of folks go out dancing every weekend , play in co-ed softball leagues and so forth ... don't mean they are good at it or ever will be ... same with the nite hunts , it's more of a passion thing than a reflection of dogpower ... and some of us have dogpower , but not passion for the hunts.

It's not so much why aren't there more B&T's at the high level .. as to why the high level competitors don't hunt B&T's ... raising and training a really nice B&T won't make it's owner a competition hunter AND a top notch handler/winner overnight ... that seems to be the premise that has been repeated in discussion for the last few years.

Which is why the WHIF is so neat ... it attracts the competitors to the breed ... but , is the money and chance of winning it really enough ? I think there will have to be more money and a better chance of winning it before the hardcore competition guys actually start looking for a nice B&T prospect to try .

Very good point Dirt devil,What would those high level competitors have for a answer?why dont those individuals look at black dogs?

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L.Richard

517-605-3199

I don't wanna name drop or speak for anyone ... but I have talked to two local guys that won alot back then with B&T's and now hunt Walkers .. and still win big and travel.

They both said , surprisingly , that it wasn't as much because of the dogs as it was the drama behind the off breeds amongst breeders .... Walker guys breed across kennel borders more and are less jealous of the success of other lines ...

Dirtdevil

In my opinion, you hit the nail right on the head as far as the breeding aspect is concerned. Kennel borders have caused such a deficiency in breeds that it has become detrimental to the cause. Jmo...Also I do not believe that the walker people cull every dog that is not naturally straight.

For sure , I know some guys around here that actually are kinda big shots in Walkers and PKC ... they travel to hunt and don't mind their dogs running a little wild ... they may not be back to that place to face an angry landowner they woke up or trespassed on for another year , if ever ... and they do alot more driving around and encouring dogs to cover ground than I do .. and probably most B&T hunters could stomach in our own hunting grounds ....

Hard to compete on a scorecard with that ... a dog that racks up points on anything that moves and never quits or comes back would drive me crazy around home .

It's not worth a penny, but here's my $.02. I think the foundation of the breeds has more to do with dominant hunt winners than anything else. I wasn't around 100 years ago when the foundation stock of B&T's was being formed, but all the old pictures I see and the stories I read shows or talks about an entire pack of B&Ts being used to chase game. Now, where did the Walker/English stock come from? Lots of different places as we already know, but they were heavily influenced by hounds that fell out of fox/deer races and treed something. They were probably usually all by themselves when they did it too. This is important if you look at what consistently wins at high levels. I think a dog has to split off from the pack and tree alone a majority of the time to win big and win consistently. What breed does this the most? I'd argue it's the Walkers and English. It's already in their DNA, all the way back to the beginning. We don't have that luxury in our breed, because the loners were probably culled when the foundation was being laid. If you can find a black dog that will split most of the time and usually have a coon, you've found yourself a winner that can compete with anything. The hard part is finding one, but they are out there. My guess is that a lot of these black dogs that were big winners 20-30 years ago probably had some outside DNA that helped with the independence part. Here we are 5 or 6 or 7 generations away from them and it's like winning the lottery to get those independent genes in our modern dogs and modern DNA tests don't allow us to mix it in from the outside anymore.

Jerrod you make a very good point. It makes sense to me.

Apparently a big thing in Pkc now is hunting b&t walker crosses.

Hunted with a 5 month old pup that made my stock look bad the other day. The pups mother is a grand daughter to dean millers lace bitch witch goes back to CANE.

So I guess the Black and Tans still have stuff the walkers need like a nose and brains maybe.

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Chris Nidy


Give me a call anytime and we can cut loose some black dogs. 330-553-0148

When you put the money , time, miles, an sometimes a handler any breed of hound is gona win . If its a gooden.

I hunted with anoff b&ts I think can win anytime anyplace given the chance, but 90% of them are owned by just regular hardworking family men like my self. Would love to go to hunt every weekend or 2 or 3 $kcs during the week, but can I nope. Just seems like all the good hunts are so far away, just takes to much money.

Since I been hunting b&ts I've nocited 2 people that have really pushed dogs on a big scale an won a good bit.

Dean Miller- hawk
Allen c- rebel an sue

I mean thems just the 2 that stick out to me. Not taking anything away from anyone else spending money to promote one.

Ask yourself this how many b&t owners you know have paid handlers?
There's a lot in other breeds.

I have noticed the jealousy, an certain cliques but hay who cares. If they jealous of you, you must have something nice!!

Jmo