UKC Forums - Need Some Input From The Bench Show Community

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Posted by jculler8 on 07-18-2013 02:31 PM:

JMO but a lot of bench show people will not attend a confirmation event because they can't "stack their dog up" to hide its faults. Fufu or not, you see how a dog is put together on the ground, not stacked up on a bench!

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Posted by Cynthia on 07-18-2013 03:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
JMO but a lot of bench show people will not attend a confirmation event because they can't "stack their dog up" to hide its faults. Fufu or not, you see how a dog is put together on the ground, not stacked up on a bench!

and there is more gaiting and that is where a lot of faults are exposed and some bsj do not look at gaiting as much as they do in the conf ring. you still stack your dog in the conf ring, you just dont "pump up" the dog as you do on the bench. the kicker is the gait portion.

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Posted by Ky Show Girl on 07-18-2013 05:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
JMO but a lot of bench show people will not attend a confirmation event because they can't "stack their dog up" to hide its faults. Fufu or not, you see how a dog is put together on the ground, not stacked up on a bench!

i dont understand? now if your talking a dog up a on bench
up in the air oppose to on your knee i guess.i have always
wished they plow a spot at ao and fire dept wet it dwn and
let the girls go at see who has the longest reach.

Posted by Dale Young on 07-18-2013 06:33 PM:

To each their own likes , dislikes and opinions .
I DO ABSOLUTELY NO GROUND TRAINING AT HOME .
This has hurt my chances in any show in the last several years but I do my best when I get there .
Training along with a nice dog is everything and my dogs don't get ground work ,what you see is what you get but that can always be enhanced with training .
Any handler amateur , professional or hired presents their dog the best possible way they can in hope of winning or they shouldn't be out there in any kind of show . Personally anything I don't do myself has little interest to me .

This thread is about why coonhounds don't show up to the Premier Top Ten Finals . Different things for different people but the present program hasn't done what UKC had hoped for and I think was get more coonhounds involved in conformation shows . Many more are involved now but apparently not thru the top ten program so they need to make some adjustments .
I prefer the bench shows because it's the environment I enjoy with hounds & hunting and people I understand and relate to , for others it's not .

Posted by Cleo on 07-18-2013 06:44 PM:

If its bench shows or conformation who cares?!

Just enjoy it! You guys are helping make Ukc a better Kc with positive input. Thats what there are interested it. Ideas.

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Posted by blocksporthound on 07-18-2013 08:20 PM:

I was going to google all this but it's probably easier to just ask Cynthia or Lisa or one of our other judges on here...

So, when you earn a conformation title at a UKC all breed show none of the points go towards earning a spot at Premier?

If that is the case I can see why it would hurt all breed conformation entry.

Currently how/where do you earn Top Ten points?

Are coonhound completely eliminated from Top Ten Premier invitation? I did receive an invite but it was for a deerhound.

I am totally confused on this Top Ten stuff. IMHO Top Ten should be judged and come from the same way/place that all the other breed Top Tens come from. Why should coonhounds be any different?

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Posted by Cleo on 07-18-2013 08:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blocksporthound
I was going to google all this but it's probably easier to just ask Cynthia or Lisa or one of our other judges on here...

Currently how/where do you earn Top Ten points?

I am totally confused on this Top Ten stuff. IMHO Top Ten should be judged and come from the same way/place that all the other breed Top Tens come from. Why should coonhounds be any different?

Im confused too. I dont see why theres a Top 10 and Purina Pt Top 10.

Oh I know Im going to regret asking that.......I read the Ukc articals but still I dont get it. Some say 1 req and some say as many as you want.....

Posted by pegjerben on 07-18-2013 08:41 PM:

Top Ten points are available at any bench show for coonhounds. the way it is currently, coonhounds do not get top ten points for conformation shows like the other breeds. the dogs elegible then compete at winter classic for an entry to the Top Ten finals at Premier - one winner in each coonhound breed.

Purina points are totally different and can only be won at specific events, state shows, AO, WC....there is a list on the front page. and while there is some disagreement over winning Purina points at an RQE, I was always told (for the show portion only) you can show in as many RQEs as you want, but you only get the 10 Purina points at the first one you win in. It always seemed like poor sportsmanship to show after your dog is qualified, why possibly take away somebody else's chance. But that is just my opinion.

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Posted by Cynthia on 07-18-2013 08:46 PM:

coonhounds do NOT earn top ten points for conformation.

you get top ten points from bench shows. at the WC, all the dogs, by breed, compete for the best of breed to earn an invitation to premier (basically a free entry). anyone can enter the show F-Su, but only the dog that won BOB at WC can enter the TT runoff and TT finals on Thur at Premier. (I think I got that right). That is what started this whole thread...how to get more of the top ten breed winners to show up at premier to compete in the runoff/finals.

Peggi covered the Purina part

Posted by blocksporthound on 07-18-2013 08:58 PM:

Ok so if you entered every local show you could and won most of the time you can be Top Ten? So local shows count as much as a national event?

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Posted by Cynthia on 07-18-2013 09:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blocksporthound
Ok so if you entered every local show you could and won most of the time you can be Top Ten? So local shows count as much as a national event?

The point system is based on the number of dogs
defeated and the number of dogs shown as reported
on the Official Bench Show Report. One point will be
deducted from the total of dogs shown in the regular
classes as the winning dog is included in that total but
did not defeat itself.
(1) The winner of the Best Male of Show will be
awarded one point for all males defeated in the classes.
(2) The winner of the Best Female of Show will be
awarded one point for all females defeated in the
classes.
(3) The winner of the Champions of Champion
Male category will be awarded three points for all
males defeated in the Champion class.
(4) The winner of the Champions of Champion
Female category will be awarded three points for all
females defeated in the Champion class.
(5) The winner of the Grand Champion Male category
will be awarded four points for all males defeated
in the Grand Champion class. Two (2) points will
be awarded for dogs shown without competition (in
the Grand Champion category only).
(6) The winner of the Grand Champion Female
category will be awarded four points for all females
defeated in the Grand Champion class. Two (2)
points will be awarded for dogs shown without competition
(in the Grand Champion category only).
The reason for increasing the number of points earned per category is to equalize the points
earned over a year. The points carry from category to
category. If your dog was a Show Champion at the
beginning of the year, and finished to a Grand Show
Champion, those points would carry on with the dog
as it competed in the Grand Champion class.
Points will not be recorded after a dog has completed
the requirements for a particular category (i.e.
� Champion or Grand Champion). The dog can continue
to show in that category until notified by UKC,
but will not earn any additional points.
Points may be withheld if it is determined that: 1)
owners refuse to show at the next level after completing
championship requirements but before receiving
UKC notification; or 2) non-competitive dogs are
being entered for the purpose of padding points.

Posted by blocksporthound on 07-18-2013 10:12 PM:

Got it! Thank you.

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Posted by Cleo on 07-18-2013 10:47 PM:

Ty Cynthia!

Posted by Cleo on 07-18-2013 10:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pegjerben
Top Ten points are available at any bench show for coonhounds. the way it is currently, coonhounds do not get top ten points for conformation shows like the other breeds. the dogs elegible then compete at winter classic for an entry to the Top Ten finals at Premier - one winner in each coonhound breed.

Purina points are totally different and can only be won at specific events, state shows, AO, WC....there is a list on the front page. and while there is some disagreement over winning Purina points at an RQE, I was always told (for the show portion only) you can show in as many RQEs as you want, but you only get the 10 Purina points at the first one you win in. It always seemed like poor sportsmanship to show after your dog is qualified, why possibly take away somebody else's chance. But that is just my opinion.

Ty! Thats what I thought as well. There was a discussion saying RQE's also gave Top 10 Pts. I felt the same way. You would cut someone else out for a chance if you showed in more then 1 ( taking that I would win more then one, lol. )

Posted by Cleo on 07-18-2013 10:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cynthia
coonhounds do NOT earn top ten points for conformation.

you get top ten points from bench shows. at the WC, all the dogs, by breed, compete for the best of breed to earn an invitation to premier (basically a free entry). anyone can enter the show F-Su, but only the dog that won BOB at WC can enter the TT runoff and TT finals on Thur at Premier. (I think I got that right). That is what started this whole thread...how to get more of the top ten breed winners to show up at premier to compete in the runoff/finals.

Peggi covered the Purina part

I hope Ukc comes up with something for the BS Top 10 so there will be something for the coonhounds. Im sure they like yalls ideas!

Posted by BuckHicks on 07-19-2013 12:12 AM:

Bench Shows

We have attended Premier in the past and wanted to be there this year. Just could not get time off for every event we wanted to attend. When I hit the Lottery we will be at every show. Remeber as avertised UKC BENCH SHOW.

Posted by Dale Young on 07-19-2013 03:09 AM:

Remember that most good dogs will graduate from reg. to champion and then Grand rather quickly if consistently entered during the 12 month period and each jump moves them into the next point category from 1 for each defeated to3 for ch's and then 4 for Grch's .

Posted by houndsnskeet on 07-19-2013 03:51 AM:

Top ten

I think the Top Ten run off should be a race for who has the most points from all clubs/events it should be judged at WC. These dogs should be judged special by 3 judges. They could make it a really nice event maybe Saturday night? Or Friday night? With a little award for all the top 10(incentive to come to WC) and a really nice award for overall breed 10 winner... Coonhound top ten should be separate from conformation top ten. I bet there would be more participation if it was like that. Maybe breed clubs could offer the #1 top 10 dog a money incentive to go to premiere like $100 dollars or something of the sort. It would help people go. But if someone does 3 days of conformation with alot of competition and ch their dog out in 3 days and never shows again they could end up being #1 and not even know it. It's a confusing topic for sure!

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Posted by Dale Young on 07-19-2013 05:55 PM:

Giving it more thought :

It would be nice to continue the Top Ten show-off at WC to crown a top Ten Coonhound Bench Champion .

Many serious conformation owners don't make that trip for a bench show .

In reality the point totals at the end of the year will already show you who has the most total points scored and by most standards should be declared the coonhound winner overall without having to make any extra long trip to the WC . The problem I see is how & what do they win in recognition of their efforts when possibly having won the points locally while supporting their favorite events , state championship and maybe breed days .

Posted by Sandi on 07-20-2013 02:54 AM:

my point to making manditory is why would you enter a show if you have ZERO intentions of going to a 'fufu' show as I have heard many times from many contenders. This is taking from those hounds that truely would go and represent the coonhound nation equally well. Another thought would be why not have more ground type judges for the top ten selection since premiere is all about ground work? and I mean no disrespect to past judges just a thought.

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Posted by blocksporthound on 07-20-2013 03:22 AM:

It sounds like maybe the dogs that show conformation SHOULD be given points towards Top Ten in order to be on an equal playing field with the other breeds that are strictly conformation dogs and that premier needs to maybe add a Top Ten bench show event. Then maybe the people that don't want to mess with a fufu show will go????? The UKC would be in a win/win. It would encourage more coonhound entries at all breed conformation shows. And it would probably encourage more bench show entries at the local level. People that are unable to travel to shows weekly to be in the top ten could have a chance by competing and bolstering competition and entires at clubs local to them. The clubs would win, the owners would win and the UKC would win. Just my thoughts.

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Posted by padfoot on 07-20-2013 01:04 PM:

The Top Ten should be held at the Premier like the other breeds. Living in the north prevents me from attending WC mainly because I don't want to chance the possibility of getting down only to be faced with a blizzard or ice coming home. Having shown at the Premier before I was saddened that the Top Ten doesn't include the coonhounds. Yes, I enjoy participating in both conformation and bench shows.

Even though the rule book (pg 48 #25) states dogs will be evaluated both while gaited and on the bench ...and gaited to determine the efficiency and athleticism of the dogs locomotion. The Black & Tan breed standard is the only one that does not mention GAIT, half of the others mention reach and drive. While some pple gait their dogs very well, there are many ppl showing in the bench shows that have no idea how to gait their dog, if the dog is on a leash it is gaiting. Gaiting is not walking and many judges disregard gait all together and some have no idea what a correct gait is even when it is in front of them.

The conformation shows are not just "fufu" shows. The judges know the breeds better and you get a more honest opinion of your dog. What pleasure is it to win BOSM but you only had to beat 3 or 4 dogs, or there was no competition? With the conformation shows when you win you know you earned it, the win was not given to you just because you showed up.

This all being said, UKC needs to reward the coonhounds by having the Top Ten at the Premier. UKC alreadys has the Purina Points Race; why bring in another program? In the event that another run off is decided why not have it done at AO for those in the bench show only Top Ten? The chance to compete in the Top Ten should not be denied to those who chose to participate in the conformation ring which is now the case.

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Posted by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL on 07-20-2013 06:26 PM:

Having judged a few local Coonhound bench Shows I am amazed there is not good representation at Premier. Call me old fashioned but I consider the Coonhound Program to be the Backbone of UKC. I have seen some awesome hounds at the few local bench shows that I have judged.

Simplify the solution.
Top 10 for bench shows(hunts) AND top 10 for conformation(all-breed shows). 2 separate programs. Invite all of the top 10 from both programs to premier for the top 10 run-off. None of these great Coonhounds that earned their way into the top 10 from either program should be excluded by UKC. You would not need to stop having the top 10 run-off for the Bench top 10.

If the Bench Show hounds choose not to participate you will still likely have some of the conformation top 10. The great coonhounds from the Bench Show top 10 should not be excluded even if they did not earn points at conformation events.

My vote is for 2 separate programs (Bench and Conformation) with all top 10 from both programs invited to premier runoff. I see this as the best option to have ALL the best coonhounds qualified to be represented at Premier.

Posted by KAYLA090205 on 07-21-2013 02:31 AM:

We show bench and conformation, enjoy both events. I'd be happy with a Bench Show Top Ten and a Conformation Top Ten. We've been wanting to make the trip up to Premiere for the past two years, mainly for all the performance dog events, but just haven't been able to swing it. Our dogs work hard to win on the bench and on the ground, it'd be nice to have a race for both.

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Posted by H. L. Meyer on 07-21-2013 02:32 AM:

O M G

Conformatiom shows are not just "fufu" shows .The judges know the breeds better and you get a more honest opinion of your dog.
Now I wonder if this statement is correct if so explain "MORE HONEST" How would you grade honesty , some what honest , just a little honest, more honest, realy honest or just HONEST. I will give you my opinion a person is either Honest or a Cheat. and just a side note my wife was showing at a all breed conformation show in Perry Ga the judge took a break walked out of the ring retrieved a book studied something and then began to judge the hound class. Not a bad idea if you are not familure with the coon hound breed standards so I would not say that they all know the breed standards better. and by the way how long have the coon hounds been included in the all breed shows anyway.
Just my opinion BENCH SHOWS are in no way the same as a Conformation Show never ment to be and will never be. A Ford is not a Cadillac never will be and was never ment to be. LEAVE THING AS IS . I like the BENCH SHOWS PERIOD.
But U were correct in one statement the B&T breed standards do not mention GATE at all so by what standard does a judge judge them by?. If he is not lame then he is good to go or what?

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