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-- Great Rule Debate (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928325370)

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Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
my entire point was what would ukc rule on a question like this. 1 left the cast while shine time still remained so what does ukc say on his vote? In my opinion he left his right to vote when he went and handled his hound. all you need in a 3 dog cast is 2 so when one says circle and one says minus what would ukc rule?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Frederick
handler #3 will still have to vote on what he or she saw in this tree for a majority to be reached.

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Originally posted by groworg1
sure are a lot of 2 hour maniacs and the sad part there the ones holding the card most of the time ! a moh is not going to listen to the first tree was voted on at the second tree crap and this cast would be lucky if he doesn't scratch the whole cast !

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Grand Nite Ch PKC CH(3) Main Street Blueberry Jam(Autumn Oaks Final 4 Grand Nite Ch 2015) UKC world finalist 2017 Ohio State Ch 2018
Grand Nite Ch(4) PKC Silver CH Main Street Blue SS quarterfinalist 2018. Autumn Oaks Grand 16 2018. Senior Showdown semifinalists 2020. UKC top 25 World hunt 2020. PKC quarterfinalist 2020
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Trevor Hack
567-231-7413

So if I didn't see a coon (MINUS)
If I found a place of refuge "like a hole"(Circle)
Quick question on Place of Refuge: was on a cast the other night and the leaves are on thick, two trees are bushy together at top. Guys in my cast say circle because they can't shine through the leaves???????? Is this the correct call???? I say MINUS!!!!! Help if you will

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Hope your dogs hunt clean and your guns shoot true!!!!

Circle is what i would vote on a leafy tree

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God Bless!!!

I think one of the problems is that people put to much emphasis on the word JUDGE. A hunting judge is just a cast member when it comes to the three situations Paul mentioned earlier. No more power in those situations then any other cast member.

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"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

hoosier that is what will happen if your voting on scoring the first tree after you arrive at the second tree and a question is placed on the card regarding the first tree ! I gave a one word answer go back and read it ! even if all 3 stayed at first tree you could have a vote of 1 to plus 1 to circle 1 to minus anytime you have a tie on vote at tree a circle will be your correct answer the rules state a majority to score tree it doesn't say all and if one guy is more worried about getting to his dog then staying to finish scoring the tree the majority will score the tree (2 out 3 is a majority where I went to school) and the first dog will be recast before scoring the 2nd tree this is a 3 dog cast !

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Frederick
Incorrect in many different ways.

Rule 3 (Points Will Be Plus) (a) When dogs strike and tree and coon is seen: (1) by a non-hunting Judge, or (2) by a majority of the cast when hunting Judge is used.

Rule 4 (Points Will Be Minus) (b) When dogs tree and (1) a non-hunting judge or (2) a majority of the cast when hunting Judge is used, can plainly see no coon is there.

No where in either of those rules do you read "majority of cast that at tree" it is always "majority of cast."

The first thing to deal with is handler #3 going to handle his dog that is now treed. The Judge can request the handler stay with the cast to score tree, especially if very little time is left in the cast.

Next you have the scoring of the tree. Handler #3 is now going to have to vote based on what he saw in the tree whether to plus, minus, or circle the tree, even though he did not stay for the entire shine time. How he votes will likely decide how the tree is scored since the other two are split on their decision.

Lastly (about John's comment) a hunting Judge is never NEVER EVER the tie-breaker in a scoring situation. A clear majority must be reached every single time, without exception. In three situations you must always have a cast vote: scoring trees, whether or not to call timeout, and whether dogs have returned to previously scored trees. In all three of those instances you must have a majority vote and the judge's vote carries no more weight than any other cast member.

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__________________
Al Tarantella

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Frederick
It is very frustrating when you add stuff to your post after it's been responded to.

Yes, he would be the tie breaker if he was handler #3 but in this instance, he was not. Read the situation again. He would only be the tie-breaker because he hasn't weighed in on a 3 dog cast, not because he's the judge.

Again, totally irrelevant because the judge was not the one who went to tie his dog at the separate tree.

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__________________
Al Tarantella

quote:

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Originally posted by GA DAWG
Whys everyone so quick to always wanna go handle their dog anyhow? Im usually pretty sure mines staying whether its 10 min or 2 hours. You don't wanna feel cheated. Stay with the cast. Specially with a couple min shine time left lol.

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Delete

Delete it it's no different then a 2 and 2 vote there's no majority vote so the tree is deleted

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Re: Delete

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Originally posted by juddman
Delete it it's no different then a 2 and 2 vote there's no majority vote so the tree is deleted

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__________________
"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

what gets me is you can find the rules on here but not the advisor does this make sense to any one else ? the ukc's gotta make a buck before they will let the masses have access to the gray area rules book this information should be free on line we pay enough fees as it is ! and if you want to carry a copy that's fine pay for it everyone that hunts ukc pays to register there dog a entry fee when they enter competition and to make member pay for this info is wrong !

advisor

I have to agree with you on the info in the Advisor should be on the web site for all to read. If you want your own personal printed copy then you are "allowed" to pay for it.

quote:

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Originally posted by groworg1
what gets me is you can find the rules on here but not the advisor does this make sense to any one else ? the ukc's gotta make a buck before they will let the masses have access to the gray area rules book this information should be free on line we pay enough fees as it is ! and if you want to carry a copy that's fine pay for it everyone that hunts ukc pays to register there dog a entry fee when they enter competition and to make member pay for this info is wrong !

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how about one of you computer savy people set up a poll about putting the advisor online maybe if we put enough pressure on the ukc it will happen ! thanks in advance

The Advisor is a book, 170 pages. It's 15 bucks. That should put it easily within the budget of anyone seriously concerned with understanding how UKC interprets their rules. At the worst, you might find it necessary to pass up one entry fee this year and spend it on the book.

You can argue that it should be free but it isn't, it ain't never gonna be and that is the way it is.

https://www.ukcdogs.com/cgi-bin/com...ey=C-BA-4353-CA

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AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

jim the rule book is 118 your point is not well taken ! but what else should I expect from a 2 hour maniac !

quote:

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Originally posted by groworg1
jim the rule book is 118 your point is not well taken ! but what else should I expect from a 2 hour maniac !

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__________________
Grand Nite Ch PKC CH(3) Main Street Blueberry Jam(Autumn Oaks Final 4 Grand Nite Ch 2015) UKC world finalist 2017 Ohio State Ch 2018
Grand Nite Ch(4) PKC Silver CH Main Street Blue SS quarterfinalist 2018. Autumn Oaks Grand 16 2018. Senior Showdown semifinalists 2020. UKC top 25 World hunt 2020. PKC quarterfinalist 2020
Grand Nite Ch HOF PKC Silver Ch Heatseaker Unleash the Kraken(Grand at 15 months old) BBOA Overall 1st place X2, Tournament of Champions Finalist, National Bluetic Days overall winner, Autumn Oaks Grand 16x2 PKC SS Semi Finalist PKC State Hunt Final 4 UKC World Top 20
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Trevor Hack
567-231-7413

Re: advisor

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Originally posted by V.R. Eakins
I have to agree with you on the info in the Advisor should be on the web site for all to read. If you want your own personal printed copy then you are "allowed" to pay for it.

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__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

quote:

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Originally posted by groworg1
jim the rule book is 118 your point is not well taken ! but what else should I expect from a 2 hour maniac !

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I think what is often lacking in these threads is the perspective of the hunters that are actually competing on a regular basis and trying their best to apply the rules fairly and honestly in a way that works in the WOODS.
We hunt dogs that get split much more often than in years past, and quite often a cast is left with 3 members of a 4 dog cast to score a tree, and quite often the member leaves the cast to handle his dog before they ever see the tree to be scored.
In the scenario that started this thread the handler was at the tree for a portion of shinetime but the fact remains that he is not present for the vote where it needs to be held AT THE TREE.
Leaveing the cast to handle a dog and returning for shinetime is not always practicle when it reguires dogs to be tied at trees in the heat for long periods of time and eats up your hunt time.

So the question remains... When we find ourselves in a situation where we have to score a tree with a cast member not present do we circle the tree when all cast members dont agree or do we require a cast member to vote at a later time that may or may not have ever seen the tree?

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quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
I think what is often lacking in these threads is the perspective of the hunters that are actually competing on a regular basis and trying their best to apply the rules fairly and honestly in a way that works in the WOODS.
We hunt dogs that get split much more often than in years past, and quite often a cast is left with 3 members of a 4 dog cast to score a tree, and quite often the member leaves the cast to handle his dog before they ever see the tree to be scored.
In the scenario that started this thread the handler was at the tree for a portion of shinetime but the fact remains that he is not present for the vote where it needs to be held AT THE TREE.
Leaveing the cast to handle a dog and returning for shinetime is not always practicle when it reguires dogs to be tied at trees in the heat for long periods of time and eats up your hunt time.

So the question remains... When we find ourselves in a situation where we have to score a tree with a cast member not present do we circle the tree when all cast members dont agree or do we require a cast member to vote at a later time that may or may not have ever seen the tree?

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Grand Nite Ch PKC CH(3) Main Street Blueberry Jam(Autumn Oaks Final 4 Grand Nite Ch 2015) UKC world finalist 2017 Ohio State Ch 2018
Grand Nite Ch(4) PKC Silver CH Main Street Blue SS quarterfinalist 2018. Autumn Oaks Grand 16 2018. Senior Showdown semifinalists 2020. UKC top 25 World hunt 2020. PKC quarterfinalist 2020
Grand Nite Ch HOF PKC Silver Ch Heatseaker Unleash the Kraken(Grand at 15 months old) BBOA Overall 1st place X2, Tournament of Champions Finalist, National Bluetic Days overall winner, Autumn Oaks Grand 16x2 PKC SS Semi Finalist PKC State Hunt Final 4 UKC World Top 20
GRNT CH BLUES AMAZING GRACE
Trevor Hack
567-231-7413

In all the hunts I have been in, I have seen numerous trees scored by 3 handlers from a 4 dog cast while the 4th handler is away at a split tree. It is fairly common in this area. I have never seen it result in a question or a problem.
It is just this simple, it takes all three voting to plus or minus the tree because the majority of a 4 dog cast is 3. That one cast member is not present is completely irrelevant. The 3 remaining score the tree and any vote other than 3 to plus or minus is a circle tree. It's just that simple and while I'm not a bit surprised it would go on through 4 pages of discussion on his board, it takes about 30 seconds in a hunt and thats it.

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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
Yea thats a good way to keep people coming back. Anytime a question or situation arrises just scratch them all.

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James Trott - (256)404-7771

ALL cast members MUST vote on how to score each and every tree, this means it is also mandatory for ALL cast members to go to each tree and participate in the scoring. Anything short of this is a scratchable offense, even in the essence of saving time it is not permissible to do it any other way. A cast member still retains their right to vote even if they are scratched, so the only time they loose that right is when they load up and go home. Page 118,119 Advisor.