UKC Forums - UKC/Teaching Bench Show Judges?

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Posted by Cleo on 05-26-2013 05:59 PM:

Yes they should

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Posted by autumn beland on 05-26-2013 06:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ky Show Girl
you guys are hilarous.i learned the rules to basketball,football and baseball and never read a rule book now we all have a rulebook and nobody can read it.what the heck.

Hey Ky Show Girl, in Pennsylvania girls don't play football or baseball.

We will have to talk to your dad about this

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 05-27-2013 05:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by autumn beland
Hey Ky Show Girl, in Pennsylvania girls don't play football or baseball.
We will have to talk to your dad about this

oh so i guess you gals do dance and modeling an such???
i love my dogs to but dad always taught me never to argue
with the refs just come home and practice.i work my dogs
about 3 times a day.i wish sometimes they would bite some
these people that are talking about winning dogs.

Posted by Dale Young on 05-27-2013 05:13 PM:

Matt is likely on the right track here , I've been showing dogs in bench shows a large part of my life and I never bother with technical things . I bring what I got and do my best to win with it . I like to think I have an eye for a good dog . I'm not a licensed judge .
My point is you're bringing your dog to the judge to see what he thinks of it so in that instance what you yourself think doesn't really matter .
3 judge panels ?????
I wouldn't walk across the street for one . It satisfies most in terms of honesty but usually that's all it does . Anyone not considered honest shouldn't be there in the first place . If you could actually get 3 judges that were capable and on the same page it might work but when judges have different preferences within the breed standards you can easily have 3 different choices for first place . Seen some very confusing 3 judge shows .
Dogs can be a little heavy or thin or too hot or too cold or just not feel good and they don't win when they should normally , just part of the game you have to deal with .
I learned a long time ago that people have personal preferences WITHIN the breed standards that effect their decisions about what they like in a dog and this is true of judges just as much as anybody else . Small differences but when you're splitting hairs to pick a winner that's all it takes to tip the scales . That's not politics .
I think 1 of the worst things that can happen is different standards for any breed from one registry to another .

If a video could be made by UKC (we're on their board) by experts and then edited critically to be as good and as simple to understand as possible BEFORE it was made available to anyone I think it could be made available for viewing right here on this board for any one wanting to view it and mandatory viewing at least for new judges .
JUST ONE VERY CORRECT VIDEO FOR EVERYONE to refer to at least for UKC shows.
The basic's of our BENCH shows have been the same practically forever and the different breed standards are very similar compared to other conformation shows where the breeds are drastically different . We really shouldn't have much trouble with this . The other shows put small dogs on a bench so the judges don't have to get down on the floor to look at them , we just did that with ours from the beginning to make it easier to look at them . Standing still is just a degree of training not an end all decision maker but usually if a dog is being a real pill it's hard to get a good look compared to the one standing so you may not be getting the look you need to make a good choice .
Make no mistake about why I show dogs . I like it , it entertains ME like any other hobby. I know I won't win every show but I WILL try to win every show . You enter the ring as a team win or lose, you walk away as a team win or lose and come to another the same way if you chose to .

Part of the problem at the local events is the majority of dogs either do not gait or stand when benched. Therefore it creates a problem to properly evaluate .The procedure for most judges is to fall back to the dogs they can evaluate .

This is so true of the training & handling locally that judges can only play the hand they're dealt .

Posted by blocksporthound on 05-27-2013 05:53 PM:

I love your answer Dale. What are your thoughts on gaiting? Should it be as important as stacking or maybe even more? If a dog has improper conformation his movement will be majorly affected.

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Posted by Jon Millwood on 05-27-2013 06:14 PM:

I think everybodys point is to take the oppinion out of it and get back to the standard.. When you have a written guidline on something it should take the guess work out of it.. Thats the biggest problem with judges in the nite hunts is they try to put their oppinion on the rules instead of following what it says in plain print..

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Posted by Cleo on 05-27-2013 06:56 PM:

Hopefully something meaningful will come out of this thread. I love my hounds, win or loose. They are my stock and I strive with every planned breeding to better them. The knowledge of the standard and the honest opinion of judges help me in seeing faults that need to be bred out of my line of hounds. I haven't been doing this for very long so my education comes from people that have taken the time to help me, such as you, Dale and Lee Currens.

Ill probably get shot down by this post but oh well. I haven't seen tbis "buddy buddy system " but maybe twice since I've been showing. I thinks its more of a difference of opinion like Jon said.

Posted by Dale Young on 05-27-2013 08:40 PM:

All the years I've been doing this I'd have quit long ago if I believed it was as crooked as some say it is . For sure I don't always agree on who wins but it wasn't my decision to make.
Dogs are to be judged both on the ground and on the bench , I think the hardest thing would be remembering what you saw for each dog when it comes decision time . Also nobody sees from the side lines what the judge sees or sometimes you do see something the judge misses while checking another dog . I see dogs all the time winning hunts, water races and field trials easily over our conformationally correct dogs so I'm a little skeptical of some of it . I'll take the winner which usually has more heart and drive .

Posted by blocksporthound on 05-27-2013 09:48 PM:

Dale maybe at major shows after each dog is gaited in and benched, they are put back on the ground and the entire class moves together. It should help judges in making a final decision.

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Posted by Cynthia on 05-27-2013 10:11 PM:

Kristen, the issue with that is that there are a subset of judges that will argue these are "bench" shows not "gait" shows. the rules state that dogs are to be judged both on the ground and on the bench. I, personally, have caught some flack from getting a couple dogs back down that were close IMO and having them regait and then choosing one after that, but when all else was equal, that was my deciding factor.

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Posted by blocksporthound on 05-27-2013 10:20 PM:

Awesome to know that Cynthia!

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Posted by Tully on 05-28-2013 01:36 AM:

Coming from a less than par bench handler

I like to see dogs judged more off their gait, than the bench. A truly good handler can correct flaws on a bench, where the dogs natural movement on the ground is just that. I feel it is more of a conformation show than a handling contest at that point.

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Posted by H. L. Meyer on 05-28-2013 02:44 AM:

Just my opiniomn

Most of the opinions on here are SIMPLY AMAZING. I bet Dale can remember WHEN most of these experts that are giving all this advice STARTED showing and now who knows where we will end.
Just a walk down memory lane probably before most were showing the main topic was in no order COLOR a person up north had a lot to say about CHALKING dogs man that was the thing then articles in the bloodline and all, Dont forget the TEETH issue again crooked judges want do nothing about that either then how about the YELLOW eyed dogs, then came CAT footed everything had to have CAT FEET darn crooked judgesagain, then there was the dogs that were to TALL judges were crooked because they would not write up those dogs that were winning, then came the COLOR thing again remember some dogs were not colored properly, then heaven forbid the ANGULATION thing even with that big debate only one breed addressed that in the rule book as a fault but again crooked judges want do nothing about thatthey keep on tying them. WHEW dun got tired but gona trudge on. Now GAITING what a farst that is again crooked judges wan't do nothing about it. IF ALL YOU EXPERTS WOULD BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF AND GAITING IS THE DETERMINING FACTOR THEN TELL ME A SHOW OTHER THAN A/O WHERE THE FACILITIES ARE BIG AND NICE ENOUGH TO EVEN GATE A DOG. Maybee the new W/C location but for darn shore the G/A don't qualify. So in closing GAITING will soon pass just like all the above but ont thing that is constant in all post is crooked judges. DALE I think you are spot on. I would quit tomorrow if I thought ther were that many CROOKED JUDGES. And who knows I may quit anyway if this GAITING remains the big thing. Darn tired of it.

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Posted by Dale Young on 05-28-2013 04:09 AM:

I'm getting too old to think this is going to matter to me much longer H.L. . The largest issue here that nobody wants to talk about is the absolute certainty that they have been cheated rather than beaten . I have to smile & bite my tongue when someone at a big show like Oaks tells me they think they got a good chance of winning and in the next breath say he's never been on the bench before , but he's a real looker . All I can say is good luck and give her a go , we all start somewhere . Facts are a lot more lose than win and those that win a lot are constantly looking for a better dog or a younger dog to keep them continuously in the game . It's not easy and certainly not cheap or with out it's sacrifices . It doesn't take a genius to practice a dog a few minutes a day and know when they're in good shape or not so when go in you have a chance of winning . I said it a long time ago "winning on Saturday depends on what you do the other 6 days of the week ". When you show up at the big ones you never know who might pop out of the wood work that you've never heard of before and beat you , for that matter the small ones to .

Posted by Doug Bowers on 05-28-2013 01:28 PM:

OK GUY'S. RQE judge is looking and getting ready to pick a winner. JUDGE looks over at his budy standing at the door. buddy said go with a certian female. .JUDGE PICKS the female. What is this .bad judgement.
several people happen to see this. .this was last year.

It sometimes happen. Believe it or not.

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Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-28-2013 03:31 PM:

GOOD QUESTION. WHAT IS THE ANSWER??

quote:
Originally posted by R.lee prater
what has chanced in the breed standard's except taking the point system out.

I think this is a good question, can people ACTUALLY answer it???

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Posted by Dale Young on 05-28-2013 03:38 PM:

I had that happen once at a State Championship when running the Purina Race . Just a matter of a Judge faced with several very nice dogs and having a hard time making a decision . The previous days judge was standing close by with paper work and almost a reflex action the judge reached for a little help . Previous judges opinion won again even though I heard the judge mention my dog to them and then change his mind . I didn't consider it crooked , just one person more assertive than another . Wasn't done to cheat anybody just bad luck for me . One never should have appealed for help and the other certainly should not have given it . It would have worked out if given a chance , just to easy in this case .

Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-28-2013 03:46 PM:

GAITING ON A BENCH

Since I have stuck my toe in the water let me ask a DUMB question. What does gaiting have to do with BENCH show anyway? Most references I have found to gaiting is about horses. If gaiting is so important shouldn't they be called Gaiting shows?? Anyone have a DUMB answer??

Posted by Cynthia on 05-28-2013 04:16 PM:

Re: GAITING ON A BENCH

quote:
Originally posted by HistoryNutt
Since I have stuck my toe in the water let me ask a DUMB question. What does gaiting have to do with BENCH show anyway? Most references I have found to gaiting is about horses. If gaiting is so important shouldn't they be called Gaiting shows?? Anyone have a DUMB answer??

pg 48 rulebook:

25. Dogs must be evaluated both while gaited and
shown on the bench. In order to properly evaluate
the coonhound, the dog must be compared to the
standard on the bench to assess its conformation
and gaited to determine the efficiency and athleticism
of the dog�s locomotion.

still do not understand why so many people have so much trouble understanding this. doesnt say can be, should be, ought to be. says MUST be.

Posted by Dale Young on 05-28-2013 04:37 PM:

Changes :
I don't follow this closely since I'm not a licensed judge and basically don't have to know . You just can't take one home and change it for the next show . Over the years there's been little changes to color and some to teeth which was & even bite at one time and now scissor bite for most if not all . Wording added for what was a disqualifying bite . Revisions for all were done not long ago in the rule book .
One upset me a little . The English standard was made to state that a lack of rear angulation was a serious fault. This wasn't any surprise but the fact it was ONLY added to the English standard did surprise me , is it not a serious fault with them all ? A line of English was doing some serious winning for years and they were often a little straight in back but overall very nice dogs . I suspect UKC & the English breed came under some kind of pressure to add this to the breed standard but I personally felt it could have been added to all the coonhound standards . In fact I haven't checked recently , maybe it has been . Most coonhound standards are very close with maybe the recent acceptance of the Leopard Hounds being the biggest difference I've noticed .
You can breed changes into or out of a dog but it's not an overnight deal and winners are bred to winners so it is important that the right ones are winning or down the road someone comes along and says we got it all wrong and a scramble for change begins . I suspect this is what's been happening through out our history in the shows while the ones dealing with strength , endurance and ability in the woods have been going their merry way breeding best to best and being for the most part happy with what they have . Dirty & skinned up don't make a bad dog , they just haven't got a high shine to'em . Look at the dogs winning the big hunts and you'll see some pretty nice dogs that may not win shows mostly for lack of training and roughed up a little but they do what they do .
Personally I've always said that most things good or bad about a dog is in their head and how they react to different things . Training for what you want your dog to do means everything unless they were born handicapped or had a accident .

Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-28-2013 04:47 PM:

Re: Re: GAITING ON A BENCH

quote:
Originally posted by Cynthia
pg 48 rulebook:

25. Dogs must be evaluated both while gaited and
shown on the bench. In order to properly evaluate
the coonhound, the dog must be compared to the
standard on the bench to assess its conformation
and gaited to determine the efficiency and athleticism
of the dog�s locomotion.

still do not understand why so many people have so much trouble understanding this. doesnt say can be, should be, ought to be. says MUST be.

HEY I said it was a DUMB question! BUT I don't know if so many are having that hard of a time undertanding. . But I do think this is a GOOD question. Care to ANSWER it??

quote:
Originally posted by R.lee prater
In 40 yrs. what has changed in the breed standard's except taking the point system out.

Posted by Cynthia on 05-28-2013 05:31 PM:

that's just it. its one person's opinion, but alot of that opinion is based on the standards that has NOT changed. its still written in black and white. I have only been in this "game" for about 12 yrs, so I dont know what all went on 50 yrs ago. Im sure the gaiting is relatively new over the last 10 or so years. the same question about 'why call it a bench show vs a gait show' is about as ridiculous as which came first the chicken or the egg. it really doesnt matter. that's the way it is now and that's the way the game is played now. the dogs must be gaited AND benched.

I think the older judges still use the point system (in their heads) when choosing between tight shows. I dont have a problem with that. I vaguely remember a few books with the points still listed in them. It actually the showed the importance of the certain body parts over others as it pertained to the OVERALL dog. lots of ppl poo-poo about that now when you talk about having good running gear (feet/pasterns/legs) vs head for example. I, for one, wish it would be put back in.

anyway, take however you want, as everyone can see there are issues with the bench shows, with judges, with spectators, etc. with opinions, with entries, with it all and until UKC takes notice and really wants to do something to help improve on all of it, all we are doing is just pissing in the wind and barking up a slick tree and nothing is going to change. we all have opinions and ideas. they have to be made AND received in a constructive way and arena for them to make it off the cutting room floor. if we are adults about it, then we need to act like and come up with some solutions and quit cutting each other down like trees in storm...gets us and the cause nowhere.

comments are said on here, then get plastered on facebook b/c UKC cant monitor it. we act like a bunch of teenagers trying to get one over on mom & dad.

the bench shows have grown over the years and will possibly get bigger. UKC needs to broaden its pool of judges and stop rotating the same people thru the wash. get some new faces that know the standards, that understand what they are looking at, that have judged some other events before. states need to do a better job of looking for their judges for the state shows. stop using the same people year in and year out. exhibitors get tired of showing to same BSJ's every year. do your homework, look around, talk to ppl, look around your state not just your corner of the woods. unless you live in New England area, you have a pretty good sized state. there is also a list BSJ's to choose from. get input from state clubs. Ive heard horror stories about the state show judges. people put in hundreds if not thousands of $$ to come to your state for these events, spend $$ in your town and you cant take time to get a quality BSJ???

sorry to get on a high horse, but I have had enough of all the pissing and moaning about this. first its the hunt vs show dogs. then its the if they cant hunt they shouldnt show. then its if they cant meet standards they shouldnt hunt. then bench vs conformation, then ukc vs akc. now this. and yes I admit Ive been in some of them myself and after this Im about ready to put a bullet in all mine and the heck with it. ugh! when will it end???

Posted by mleck on 05-28-2013 06:51 PM:

its funny to me why ukc hasn*t give a reply to this thread. Over a year ago i sent two emails to ukc about training material to be purchased by our club to train some additional show judges that would be quality judges. Never recieved a reply to either email. Its like ukc is scared to provide this training as it may actually differ from all these high powered showmen across the country. Uniformity would in judges would be a good thing when showing. At these shows you can get the opinion of two different judges and both will be different about same dog. There are resources in most judgeing activities to better yourself but dog showing seems to just be opinions of others not properly trained either.

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Posted by BlackElK on 05-28-2013 06:53 PM:

I fully agree with Cynthia on the getting new judges I'm the mix. There are 100's of qualified judges that never get asked to judge. UKC has fell into this idea that using judges that are currently showing and active is the best route. Every year a new face pops up winning bigger events well you can bet the next year UKC will use them as a judge if possible. There are alot better judges sitting on the sidelines because there not being chosen by clubs. Whoever came up with the idea that the best judge is the one that lost to the guy showing last week? Yes there are honest judges being used but why do I need the same judges opinion 11 times in 18 months? JMO. If you look at the judges rundown over a years time, 80% of them or better at big shows are actively showing or breeding and then we complain bout politics. We have created this.

Posted by Cynthia on 05-28-2013 07:12 PM:

well, its either you're in the click or you're in the good ol boys club. either way we are all screwed without some more education, training, increased knowledge. we're either stuck in the mud or continuing to learn and better ourselves and trying to pass on what we know and what we have learned to make the next group better than what we have left behind.

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