UKC Forums - CLARIFY: In line at deadline.

Pages (2): « 1 [2]
Show all 50 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- CLARIFY: In line at deadline. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928319526)

Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-20-2013 03:20 AM:

Frozen Semen Ownership Question Too

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Frederick
Go back and read the Advisor column in Coonhound Bloodlines for the last 6 months or so. I'll answer the question fully in the morning from work. I have written about it in the Advisor and Allen wrote about it before I did as well.

Hey Paul while you are answering this question could you or someone from UKC answer this other question please? Thank You Don

quote:
Originally posted by HistoryNutt
I have a question for Todd or Alan or someone from UKC. What is the process when someone owns Frozen Semen from a hound and they want to raise a litter of pups from it?

I know of some frozen semen where numerous people own straws of it.

So do you just sign a stud certificate from the semen you own Or do you have do provide something to prove your ownership of the semen you are using?

Just curious.

http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthrea...eadid=928314459

__________________
The History Should Be Known
Don

http://www.finleyriverchief.com

Sites I like to visit that have a lot of information:

A Lot Of Old Pictures And Ads

http://finleyriverchief.forumotion.net

Register On The Above Forum To See A Lot More Old Pictures And Ads.
There are more that you can't access unless registered.

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 05-20-2013 03:34 AM:

Don i dont have a problem with none of it as long as you are
there with dog in hand when called.that is just 3-4 pts i could get.

Posted by Pat Bizich on 05-20-2013 03:40 AM:

I will go back and see if I can find the column dealing with this.In the mean time page 143 of the second edition advisor deals with late handlers.Basically says it is up to the MOH .

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
Gone too soon RIP my baby girl
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
One of kind and would make a believer out of you when you thought there were no coon left
Home of:
2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
CH. Power Pack Pepper
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-20-2013 03:41 AM:

When Is A Rule NOT A Rule?

quote:
Originally posted by Ky Show Girl
Don i dont have a problem with none of it as long as you are
there with dog in hand when called.that is just 3-4 pts i could get.

Hey Girl what about this one. It is a Bench Show, the person calls in but is about 15-20 minutes away. By the time they get there and the show starts it is 35 minutes past Show Entry Deadline. In MOST of these small shows 35 minutes after Entry Deadline the show has been over for a while.

Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-20-2013 03:44 AM:

When Is A Rule NOT A Rule?

quote:
Originally posted by Pat Bizich
I will go back and see if I can find the column dealing with this.In the mean time page 147 of the second edition advisor deals with late handlers.Basically says it is up to the MOH .

What about a bench show?

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 05-20-2013 03:46 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ky Show Girl
Don i dont have a problem with none of it as long as you are
there with dog in hand when called.that is just 3-4 pts i could get.

it is what is,dog in hand when called.

Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-20-2013 03:48 AM:

When Is A Rule Not A Rule??

quote:
Originally posted by Ky Show Girl
it is what is,dog in hand when called.

What if they are waiting for the person who called to get there BEFORE they start the show?

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 05-20-2013 03:55 AM:

most have the show before the hunt what else you got to do before dark.

Posted by Pat Bizich on 05-20-2013 04:08 AM:

Alright here it is in black and white.....Thank you Paul.[It was further back ]It is an official interpretation by UKC. You don't need to agree with it but you have to follow it.

PAGE 60 JANUARY 2011 COONHOUND BLOODLINES.

Posted by Pat Bizich on 05-20-2013 04:13 AM:

Re: When Is A Rule Not A Rule??

quote:
Originally posted by HistoryNutt
What if they are waiting for the person who called to get there BEFORE they start the show?

This also has been covered.When your dog is called the handler should be ready.If they miss their class due to wrong entry , not paying attention,or in this case not there.Too bad they will be given a reasonable time to make the show ring then the judge shall proceed without them .

Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-20-2013 04:21 AM:

When Is A Rule NOT A Rule?

quote:
Originally posted by Ky Show Girl
most have the show before the hunt what else you got to do before dark.

So WHAT is the purpose to have RULES such as DEADLINES if they AREN'T going to be followed?

Let's go back to a 3:00 AM Hunt deadline. A cast that is running late calls BEFORE the deadline and reports the points on the score card. They pull up at the Clubhouse at 3:05 AM. Why won't that scorecard be allowed? What's the difference??

Someone ISN'T making A deadline BUT is CALLING in.

Would SOMEONE care to EXPLAIN the difference??

So Girl do YOU think it is okay to WAIT 35 minutes after show entries close for a person who called in? Everyone else was there on time. WHY should they have to wait OVER a half hour because someone didn't plan their trip well enough?

How long is TOO long to wait and if you wait a minute past the deadline WHY have the deadline?

Posted by Paul Frederick on 05-20-2013 01:34 PM:

Ok, I've looked through the last 18 months of Coonhound Advisor Columns in the Coonhound Bloodlines and I must admit fault with my previous statement. I was just sure that Allen or I had written about the conditional entries (and late entries) in the last few months. I was mistaken. Either way, here's the answer.

Before conditional entries the entry money could not be taken if a dog and handler were running late because no one had their Easy Entry card or the dog's papers to verify name, owner, and UKC number. We all know with the conditional entry provision, though, that you do not need those documents to enter a UKC Licensed Event, you will just have to pay the $5 conditional entry fee.

With late handlers it is acceptable for someone else to enter for them if they don't think they'll make the entry deadline. The key part though is that the entry must be paid, in full, before the entry deadline. Since the guy at the club doesn't have the Easy Entry card or dog's papers, they will also have to pay the $5 conditional entry fee before deadline. There is not "extending" of the deadline, the entry has already been entered and paid, it's just the participant has not arrived yet.

We then stipulate that all handlers, not present when casts are called out, will be scratched. Now, we want clubs to use good sense when it comes to scratching someone. Please don't bust tail and call the casts out faster than ever just to scratch a dog, but don't draw it out waiting for that cast member. Most of the time when someone is running late they are just a few minutes late so it doesn't delay the cast anyway.

Here's where a lot of handlers have been misinterpreting this rule. They think they can just call the number listed in the Upcoming Events and have them "hold" their entry for them. This is not the case. You had better have someone you know, and trusts you I guess, at the club who is willing to shell out the money for your dog to enter. If the club official or MOH knows the individual and wants to pay their entry it's fine but they have absolutely no obligation to do so.

The same would apply to Bench Show deadlines. You can accept the entry, as long as it's paid in full, but if the participant is not there when their cast is called, they are scratched and forfeit their entry money.

Something for all clubs to remember in this situation is that these hunters are your customers. By speeding up your process just to scratch someone who's entry has been paid, you have the possibility of losing a customer for life. Use good judgement.

When we look at return deadlines we have to remember that there is no extension of entry deadlines. If a guy walks in, who hasn't been entered at all, 2 seconds after deadline has been called, they cannot enter. If a cast walks in 2 seconds after return deadline has been called, their cast is scratched.

I hope this clears this up for you all. You might also consider that this rule has been in effect since January 1, 2011.

__________________
Paul Frederick
319-371-6362

Posted by Tim Toler on 05-20-2013 01:45 PM:

Re: When Is A Rule Not A Rule??

quote:
Originally posted by HistoryNutt
Common Sense says something is not right with this. "When is a Rule Not A Rule"? If it is okay for this then say you have a 3:00 AM hunt deadline. A casts gets in at 3:05 AM. Why can't there card still be good? Especially if they call in before the deadline is up and report the scores. If it is okay to give on one rule WHY NOT on another rule??

Wouldn't this be in violation of the cell phone policy of not using it or call in scores? So that person would be scratched for using their cell phone..

__________________
Toler's Kanawha River Kennels

Home of:
GRCH GRNITECH 'PR' LB Red Hot Sweat "Rock" HTX (R.I.P ROCK, 1/27/13)
Former Home of PKC CH AKC CGN GRNITECH CH 'PR' Toler's TriColor Taz
2013 UKC World Qualified
2013 PKC World Qualified
2013/2014 AKC World Qualified
2013 WV State AKC Champion
2014 Ohio State AKC Champion
2014 WV State AKC Youth Champion

PROUD SUPPORTER OF:
E-TOWN KENNELS & SUPPLY
http://www.etownkennelssupply.com/default.html

Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-20-2013 02:14 PM:

When Is A Deadline NOT A Deadline??

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Frederick
Ok, I've looked through the last 18 months of Coonhound Advisor Columns in the Coonhound Bloodlines and I must admit fault with my previous statement. I was just sure that Allen or I had written about the conditional entries (and late entries) in the last few months. I was mistaken. Either way, here's the answer.

Before conditional entries the entry money could not be taken if a dog and handler were running late because no one had their Easy Entry card or the dog's papers to verify name, owner, and UKC number. We all know with the conditional entry provision, though, that you do not need those documents to enter a UKC Licensed Event, you will just have to pay the $5 conditional entry fee.

With late handlers it is acceptable for someone else to enter for them if they don't think they'll make the entry deadline. The key part though is that the entry must be paid, in full, before the entry deadline. Since the guy at the club doesn't have the Easy Entry card or dog's papers, they will also have to pay the $5 conditional entry fee before deadline. There is not "extending" of the deadline, the entry has already been entered and paid, it's just the participant has not arrived yet.

We then stipulate that all handlers, not present when casts are called out, will be scratched. Now, we want clubs to use good sense when it comes to scratching someone. Please don't bust tail and call the casts out faster than ever just to scratch a dog, but don't draw it out waiting for that cast member. Most of the time when someone is running late they are just a few minutes late so it doesn't delay the cast anyway.

Here's where a lot of handlers have been misinterpreting this rule. They think they can just call the number listed in the Upcoming Events and have them "hold" their entry for them. This is not the case. You had better have someone you know, and trusts you I guess, at the club who is willing to shell out the money for your dog to enter. If the club official or MOH knows the individual and wants to pay their entry it's fine but they have absolutely no obligation to do so.

The same would apply to Bench Show deadlines. You can accept the entry, as long as it's paid in full, but if the participant is not there when their cast is called, they are scratched and forfeit their entry money.

Something for all clubs to remember in this situation is that these hunters are your customers. By speeding up your process just to scratch someone who's entry has been paid, you have the possibility of losing a customer for life. Use good judgement.

When we look at return deadlines we have to remember that there is no extension of entry deadlines. If a guy walks in, who hasn't been entered at all, 2 seconds after deadline has been called, they cannot enter. If a cast walks in 2 seconds after return deadline has been called, their cast is scratched.

I hope this clears this up for you all. You might also consider that this rule has been in effect since January 1, 2011.

Thank you Paul, But even with answers sometimes there comes more questions. Let's take a Bench Show. SOO if someone calls in that they are running late the entry HAS (?) to be paid BEFORE the deadline time, correct? The way I am reading you it ISN'T an extension of the deadline BECAUSE the entry HAS BEEN paid BEFORE the entry deadline. So if no one paid their entry for them, then when they arrive AFTER the entry deadline even though they called are they allowed by the Rules of UKC to enter their dog?

AND with that another question about the hunts. Cast is running late. 3:00 AM deadline. Cast call in with their hunt (cast) results BEFORE 3:00 AM. They pull in at the club house at 3:05 AM is their card honored?

The results of their cast was called in BEFORE the deadline and they pulled in just minutes after that deadline so they aren't holding up anyone and the results were submitted BEFORE the deadline.

What is the difference? I am not trying to be hard or unreasonable but everything isn't gray. There is black and white. Just trying to think about this in a common sense way I don't really see the difference in the way this is trying to be explained away.

The Deadline is NOT being extended IF the results of the cast is called in BEFORE the deadline. Is it?

In a Common Sense way of thinking I just can't wrap my mind around THIS being different with THAT. Maybe someday it will click but TODAY it's NOT clicking. At least with me. Thanks to every one with THEIR opinion. "Good Night Irene"

Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-20-2013 02:15 PM:

Re: Re: When Is A Rule Not A Rule??

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Toler
Wouldn't this be in violation of the cell phone policy of not using it or call in scores? So that person would be scratched for using their cell phone..

What if they stopped at a Pay Phone? (if they could find one)
This is Insane lol

Posted by Tim Toler on 05-20-2013 02:31 PM:

What Paul has said... is the entry has to be PAID IN FULL before the entry dead line, therefore the dead line wasn't extended.

To me when talking about the hunt dead line, you are talking about something totally different. The rules does not state nothing about conditional returns at the end of a hunt, the score card has to be handed in to MOH before the hunt dead line. That is the difference there, before the conditional entries you had to have your paper work at time of entry, now you don't which allowed for this to be possible at sign up. There hasn't been no changes about the hunt dead line, so that SCORE card has to be in the MOH hand before the hunt dead line.

You asked about if the cast stopped at a pay phone.. would you want me scratched if I stopped at a pay phone and called another cast and told them the scores of our cast?

Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-20-2013 02:45 PM:

BEND A LITTLE HERE, BEND A LITTEL THERE

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Toler
What Paul has said... is the entry has to be PAID IN FULL before the entry dead line, therefore the dead line wasn't extended.

To me when talking about the hunt dead line, you are talking about something totally different. The rules does not state nothing about conditional returns at the end of a hunt, the score card has to be handed in to MOH before the hunt dead line. That is the difference there, before the conditional entries you had to have your paper work at time of entry, now you don't which allowed for this to be possible at sign up. There hasn't been no changes about the hunt dead line, so that SCORE card has to be in the MOH hand before the hunt dead line.

You asked about if the cast stopped at a pay phone.. would you want me scratched if I stopped at a pay phone and called another cast and told them the scores of our cast?

The whole thing is Insane Of course I would want you scratched. , Good Night Irene PEACE, LOVE, HOPE,

Posted by Paul Frederick on 05-20-2013 02:52 PM:

Don,

I answered all those questions in my answer. The entry fee has to be paid before deadline. End of story. It works the same way in the Bench Show. If they show up even one second after the deadline and no one has entered for them (aka it hasn't been paid) they are out of luck and absolutely CANNOT enter.

In both Nite Hunt and Bench Show if the participant isn't there when their dog is called (either to go on a cast or for their class) they are scratched and they forfeit their entry money.

Since the deadline is not extended it works the same way for the return deadline. If they could magically get someone to turn in their card before the deadline (like a spectator or guide who gets to the club faster) then the scorecard will be accepted even if the entire cast isn't back. If that scorecard is even half a second late getting to the MOH/HD the entire cast is scratched.

Please forget any wording about extending the deadline. In these situations it does not exist. In both cases something (either the entry or scorecard) must be in the MOH/HD hands before the advertised/posted deadline without exception!

__________________
Paul Frederick
319-371-6362

Posted by R.lee prater on 05-20-2013 06:30 PM:

JUST ME.

PAUL Thank's :I'm just speaking for myself. I'm the care giver of my spouse and she has to have someone with her 24/7. PLANNING: It take's planning on my part just to be able to go to a show these day's. Hunting in a hunt is out of the question. I cann't ask someone to stay with her 6 or 8 hrs'. Show's around here may have 6,8 or 10 dog's if they a lucky.CUSTOMER'S: How about the one's that are there 30mins. to 1hr. before the deadline. I know that I can stay at home and not carry 2 or 3 dog's but when I'm able to go I do go to support the club's. Surely 10 or 15 mins. after the deadline is enough time to wait on someone to get there. And I know that I can away's withdraw my dog's and go home. THANK's J'M'O' Roger

Posted by Pat Bizich on 05-20-2013 11:11 PM:

[PAGE 60 JANUARY 2011 COONHOUND BLOODLINES. [/B][/QUOTE]

Paul,You must have missed my post.You were correct .It was just further back than you thought.

Posted by Surveyor on 10-12-2013 01:46 PM:

Btt
I thought I had read a post like this a while back. Everyone needs to read the oficial interpretation because it is widely believed in my area, that one can now just call the club official and have them hold an entry for them if they are running late-happened just last night at my club.

__________________
Mike Sheppard
Sheppard's Northern Blue's
Home of UKC GR NT CH, PKC CH
2 time world finalist, 10th overall and high scoring Bluetick of the 2010 UKC World Coonhound Championship
NASHOBA VALLEY PIAZON, (RIP)
his littermate brother
UKC NT CH SHEPPARDS NORTHERN
BLUE LONER (RIP)
UKC GR NT CH RATTLERS BLUE SKY (RIP)
UKC Gr NT CH, PKC Ch Sheppard's Northern Blue Abbie, (PiazonxSky) UKC GR NT CH 'pr' Sheppards Northern Blue Punkin (PiazonXAlice) High scoring Bluetick of the 2015 (50th anniversary) Grand American, 2017 National Grand Nite Champion of breed, 2017 BBOA zone 4 Nite hunt dog of the year. Queen of hunt on 2019 Grand National Bluetick Reunion, 5th place and High Scoring Bluetick of 2019 UKC world Nite hunt Championship, 2019 Triple Crown Winner.
UKC GR NT CH 'pr' Mckintosh's Blue Flame Chopper
Gr Nt Ch Sheppards Northern Blue Goomba (Piazon X Dizzie) 14th place 2017 UKC world coon hound championship 100 purina point cast wins in 2018
and several other blueticks of lesser accomplishments

Posted by john Duemmer on 10-12-2013 01:56 PM:

Re: CLARIFY: In line at deadline.

quote:
Originally posted by R.lee prater
I have away's understood standing in line at the deadline meant just that. Not on a cell phone mile's away. If i'm wrong please let me know. THANK'S

Now that we have conditional entrys i would think either you or your representive that is paying your entry would need to be in line at deadline.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by Billy Beckham on 10-12-2013 02:03 PM:

I fully understand this rule and don't have any problems as it is written.
In the age of dying hunt participation should we look at how we handle this. I was at a hunt were there was a lot of road construction that had traffic stopped in two different spots, then they missed the exit because of traffic, they got to the club one minute early, as they are hot footing it to the club MOH says "entries closed" as they walk in. the were not allowed to enter.
Should they have been allowed? I say not by the rules but that was two dogs not allowed to hunt. You think they will ever return to that club.

There is a registry that will allow you to call if running late and they make it real clear that cards have to be turned in before deadline and walking to the clubhouse is not considered turned in.

__________________
Billy Beckham
618-214-0065

PKC CH, GRNITECH Beckham's Hillbilly Bones

Posted by Triple K Kennel on 10-12-2013 02:19 PM:

Hunt .....

quote:
Originally posted by Billy Beckham
I fully understand this rule and don't have any problems as it is written.
In the age of dying hunt participation should we look at how we handle this. I was at a hunt were there was a lot of road construction that had traffic stopped in two different spots, then they missed the exit because of traffic, they got to the club one minute early, as they are hot footing it to the club MOH says "entries closed" as they walk in. the were not allowed to enter.
Should they have been allowed? I say not by the rules but that was two dogs not allowed to hunt. You think they will ever return to that club.

There is a registry that will allow you to call if running late and they make it real clear that cards have to be turned in before deadline and walking to the clubhouse is not considered turned in.

I would bet they will return, but will also bet they will leave the house a little earlier to accommodate any unseen delays........

.....

__________________
Track B4 Tree

Quality, Dependable Coon Lights--Built by a Coonhunter for Coonhunters
==================================
** Superior Lites

** Nitehunters.com

** Zepp's--Quality Products

** Tall Timber
Lights

**Hellcat Maxx E.S.

** They Twist it until they start believing it themselves**

Purina Dog Food
** Proven Results **

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Competition Coonhunters and Politicians
** Win anyway you have to & tell everyone what they want to hear **

Posted by Surveyor on 10-12-2013 03:50 PM:

If U don't go back to a club because they wouldn't break the rules for U Well..........

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:03 PM.

Pages (2): « 1 [2]
Show all 50 posts from this thread on one page