UKC Forums - How would you score this

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Posted by GA DAWG on 05-11-2013 11:44 PM:

I figure its common knowledge that the judge goes first. I've never told that any time before a cast. Should I tell em also you can't scratch a dog for only face barking?

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 05-11-2013 11:52 PM:

Re: all answers are wrong

quote:
Originally posted by everett
this is an example of how out of wack hunters across the board are with the rules. here is the facts.

The Advisor, official interpretation of ukc nite hunt rules and policies.

judging, there are only 3 situations that a cast vote is called, the judge scores ALL others, those three are, scoring tree,s, (coon seen or not) calling time out,and returning to previously scored tree,s without declaring dogs treed. page 80 Rule chapter 10 3rd paragraph.

And yes a dog can be scratched for aggressive behavior if that behavior is interfering with another dog, or is determined by the judge only that the dog is attempting to fight.

running into the tree before the judge, should have been scratched, it is not the judges responsibility to teach you the rules, he does not have to tell you to not go in to a tree before him, it is your responsibility to know the rules when you enter, Does the judge have to tell you when to tree your dog? That rule is well known common knowledge, and if three handlers are running in to tree you can bet they knew better. They are scratched, the Master of hounds needs to get him The Advisor book and study it...Gerald/ MH/BSJ

You are correct on the vote unless a cast member asks for a cast vote on a judges decision. I agree with Jim that the judge did not have control of the cast and they had probably gotten into every tree that night before the judge. I always make it clear if I am judging that I will always be first into every tree. Yes, a dog can be scratched for face barking if it meets both aggressive behavior and interfering with another dog (judges decision if it meets both). The MOH siding with the majority is nothing new to this sport. He is not there and has make a decision based on what he hears. The judge must keep control of the cast and once he lets a little thing slide he has to let the next one and so on. You don't have to be a butt to judge a cast but before a dog is ever cut the judge should inform the cast that the rules will be followed by all.

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Posted by everett on 05-12-2013 05:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
You can't scratch a dog for face barking period!

you sure can, that is aggressive behavior, and if it appears to be interfering with another dog you can scratch him....Gerald

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Posted by Cornbelt on 05-12-2013 08:56 AM:

The judge may not have been in control of the cast but if I was the MOH he would have still been on the cast. I would have told the members of the cast that it was nice of them to vote but the election was over. I would have reminded them about item 7 on the MOH checklist that I read before we handed out the cards. In particular the part about questioning something immediately when it happens. Any question after that time and there is no question to vote on. IMO before a MOH hears a question he should be sure it was properly questioned. And a good judge should know this as well and be able to flip the card over show them rule 18 and keep hunting. If it had been questioned properly then I would have asked each member if they saw aggression that was interfering with the other dogs ability to tree. I would also be real curious as to why the guy that didn't see anything was casting a vote to scratch? I know you have to vote but if you didn't see anything wouldn't that be how you would vote? After gathering that info I would decide if it was best to go with the cast vote or overturn the cast vote.

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Posted by JiM on 05-12-2013 02:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cornbelt
I would also be real curious as to why the guy that didn't see anything was casting a vote to scratch? I know you have to vote but if you didn't see anything wouldn't that be how you would vote? After gathering that info I would decide if it was best to go with the cast vote or overturn the cast vote.

You can't vote "I didn't see anything", you vote for or against the scratch. That is required. How do you vote when you didn't see it happen? The same way YOU as MOH decide the issue when YOU didn't see anything either.

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Posted by Ky Show Girl on 05-12-2013 02:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You can't vote "I didn't see anything", you vote for or against the scratch. That is required. How do you vote when you didn't see it happen? The same way YOU as MOH decide the issue when YOU didn't see anything either.

i dont undestand if you tell the truth.1 didnt see anything 1 you
know voted no so how did it go back to the club at 2-2.

Posted by Cornbelt on 05-12-2013 03:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You can't vote "I didn't see anything", you vote for or against the scratch. That is required. How do you vote when you didn't see it happen? The same way YOU as MOH decide the issue when YOU didn't see anything either.

I realize you have to vote yes or no. But if you did not see the aggressive behavior causing interference why would you vote yes to scratch? How would that be different than saying you don't see a coon but voting to plus the tree? The guy can vote however he wants. But if I'm the MOH and his vote is part of a question I'm hearing I'm going to want to each member voting to scratch a dog to give me the logic behind the vote they cast. I would think if a guy didn't see anything he would vote no to scratch... because he had no reason to vote yes.
Even if the guy is a poor judge should he be punished for that by allowing the others in the cast to not have to follow the rules unless the judge makes them? I've been on plenty of casts were the judge had no business judging. But the rules on the back of the card are for everyone. That is why IMO the question should have been not heard by the MOH in this situation.

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Posted by JiM on 05-12-2013 03:51 PM:

But if you did not see the aggressive behavior causing interference why would you vote yes to scratch?

Because you believe the guy that said he saw it and you don't believe the guy who says he didn't.

How would that be different than saying you don't see a coon but voting to plus the tree?

It is different because the rules say you need to see a coon to vote plus but there is no requirement to see a fight before you can vote to scratch. In fact, UKC has specifically stated several times on here and in the Advisor that you can scratch for fighting without seeing the fight. So there is a big difference.

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 05-12-2013 04:25 PM:

Thanks, Jim

Posted by jeff thomley on 05-12-2013 04:34 PM:

MOH told me yesterday that the 2 that saw this said he never touched another dog , he just was blowing at 1 dog when they ran in there and they didn't like it . I have been breeding him some here lately and I agree that he has changed on me in the woods , I know he has been in over 100 hunts and I have seen dogs face bark him bump him and even had him ran off a few trees never seen those dogs scratched he and I just took it and went on . Now he is starched for fighting bc 2 out 4 said he barked at there dog . Everything that went on was done wrong , and should have bn thrown out . He want be back to another ukc hunt any way just wish this wouldn't have happen

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Posted by JiM on 05-12-2013 04:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jeff thomley
MOH told me yesterday that the 2 that saw this said he never touched another dog , he just was blowing at 1 dog when they ran in there and they didn't like it . I have been breeding him some here lately and I agree that he has changed on me in the woods , I know he has been in over 100 hunts and I have seen dogs face bark him bump him and even had him ran off a few trees never seen those dogs scratched he and I just took it and went on . Now he is starched for fighting bc 2 out 4 said he barked at there dog . Everything that went on was done wrong , and should have bn thrown out . He want be back to another ukc hunt any way just wish this wouldn't have happen

The comments I made on this thread were in response to the questions of procedure. I wasn't there, have no idea what did or didn't happen and as such, I'm not about to try and say if someone got screwed or not.

Posted by pamjohnson on 05-12-2013 06:10 PM:

I wasn't there either but its easy to see a bad display of sportsmanship by 3 members of the cast.shame on them.

Posted by Cornbelt on 05-12-2013 07:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
The comments I made on this thread were in response to the questions of procedure. I wasn't there, have no idea what did or didn't happen and as such, I'm not about to try and say if someone got screwed or not.

Well according to procedure the question should not have been heard.

Although you give a good explanation Jim I would still ask the handler why he voted to scratch. If he didn't see it his vote would carry little weight with my decision.

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Posted by joey on 05-13-2013 01:51 AM:

The question should of never been heard by the MOH. I have hunted with this dog on 5 cast. He has been in a bunch of hunts with no problems. I would not worry about it Jeff he want get another one. Just roll with it.

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Posted by Dan Dawg on 05-13-2013 01:56 AM:

Sounds Like A Sorry Moh He Should Scratch The 3 Cast Members And Send The Other Dog Back Out Hunting

Posted by H DOG on 05-13-2013 04:03 AM:

MOH Needs His License Revoked

Posted by charleyt on 05-13-2013 08:24 AM:

Rules are on the back of the score card,(or used to be).

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Posted by Diggerman on 05-13-2013 12:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by everett
you sure can, that is aggressive behavior, and if it appears to be interfering with another dog you can scratch him....Gerald

UNLESS it's the judges dog, then he gets a free pass.

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Posted by gunslinger266 on 05-14-2013 02:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Diggerman
UNLESS it's the judges dog, then he gets a free pass.

It was the judges dog...

Sounds like the judge just let them buffalo him, I have drawn out with this dog a couple of times too and never had a problem.

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Posted by Diggerman on 05-14-2013 01:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by gunslinger266
It was the judges dog...

Sounds like the judge just let them buffalo him, I have drawn out with this dog a couple of times too and never had a problem.

You didn't have a judge,you had a score keeper,probly messed that up too.

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