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-- Is it time for a change in titling procedure? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928307066)

i started hunting ukc back in the 60,s and if i remember right the ruls use to state that the dogs were suppose to hunt and pack together.does anyone else remember this.

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fred harroun
319-325-3786
Plotts
NPHA
APA

If any changes need to be made, it needs to be in the arena of so many cast wins to make a title, not so many first places. You can only compete against what is in your cast and if your cast isn't in near as good of coon country as the next cast, it does not mean your cast winner is a lesser dog than the next cast winner.

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Mike Sheppard
Sheppard's Northern Blue's
Home of UKC GR NT CH, PKC CH
2 time world finalist, 10th overall and high scoring Bluetick of the 2010 UKC World Coonhound Championship
NASHOBA VALLEY PIAZON, (RIP)
his littermate brother
UKC NT CH SHEPPARDS NORTHERN
BLUE LONER (RIP)
UKC GR NT CH RATTLERS BLUE SKY (RIP)
UKC Gr NT CH, PKC Ch Sheppard's Northern Blue Abbie, (PiazonxSky) UKC GR NT CH 'pr' Sheppards Northern Blue Punkin (PiazonXAlice) High scoring Bluetick of the 2015 (50th anniversary) Grand American, 2017 National Grand Nite Champion of breed, 2017 BBOA zone 4 Nite hunt dog of the year. Queen of hunt on 2019 Grand National Bluetick Reunion, 5th place and High Scoring Bluetick of 2019 UKC world Nite hunt Championship, 2019 Triple Crown Winner.
UKC GR NT CH 'pr' Mckintosh's Blue Flame Chopper
Gr Nt Ch Sheppards Northern Blue Goomba (Piazon X Dizzie) 14th place 2017 UKC world coon hound championship 100 purina point cast wins in 2018
and several other blueticks of lesser accomplishments

Amen Mike you can only beat the 3 your hunting against. I vote hunt it off and crown the true winner.!!"!"""""!!!!

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Deep and lonely!!!!!!!

Fred dont remember about the pack rule of the 60's. But if that was the case that does explain why all gr nt me to dogs of the past. You bring your coondog and give me a me toer with the ukc tree scoring system and Ill beat you at least 50% of the time, throw in the tree countdown and Im probably s**t out of luck.

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Deep and lonely!!!!!!!

If we really want to help the clubs out and make sure the dogs have competition,why not just draw all dogs together?Seems like there's a 1 or 2 dog cast at every hunt now.If a Nite CH. wins he gets a win to gr CH.If a registered dog wins he gets a place.Hunt by nite CH rules.This would help clubs be able to keep their guides hunting by not having to put somebody with that 1 or 2 dog cast.People mite even bring ol' gr nt back out to join the fun again if we did this.

I threw this out for discussion because it is stated on here all the time that having a GR Nt doesn't mean as much now as it used to, about anything can be titled anymore, hunt numbers are lower, easy to finish a dog out, and then what does a person do with there dog once it's titled other than go to a different kennel club to compete. I was just thinking that modifying the system that is all ready in place with UKC might be an easier solution. The other kennel clubs are fine with me but I know that the money brought in from UKC hunts is what keeps my local coon club going.

I personally like the 5 cast wins to Nt Ch, 5 cast wins to Gr Nt, and 5 more for Superior Grand in one of the other kennel clubs. I also like their babbling rule and their count down on the tree. I also like the dogs being drawn out randomly regardless of degrees. But they're not UKC and their registration records and their titles don't mean as much.

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

quote:

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Originally posted by grntinokla
If we really want to help the clubs out and make sure the dogs have competition,why not just draw all dogs together?Seems like there's a 1 or 2 dog cast at every hunt now.If a Nite CH. wins he gets a win to gr CH.If a registered dog wins he gets a place.Hunt by nite CH rules.This would help clubs be able to keep their guides hunting by not having to put somebody with that 1 or 2 dog cast.People mite even bring ol' gr nt back out to join the fun again if we did this.

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Michael Ghorley

I think the biggest reason for the low numbers has nothing to do with UKC. Making it harder to finish a dog to Grand Nite could be counter productive because it could drive your entries even lower. Here's why.

Finishing a dog to Grand Nite is expensive. Gasoline prices will probably be over $4 a gallon by Memorial Day weekend if they aren't already in some parts of the country. Factor your entry fees, fuel cost and time and it's not hard to figure out why the numbers are so low.

When I first started hunting the hunts in the eighties, open registered would award a placing even if you didn't win your cast. If you were to go to a hunt with eight open registered dogs, often there would be eight places awarded. Back then, there were a lot more bogus Nite Champions. The rule change where you had to win your cast made the scores a lot more honest, but that rule has made it more difficult to earn a Nite Champion degree and could be another reason why the entries are lower. Would I go back to awarding non-cast winners with a placement in the hunt... NO WAY. But that rule change has to be considered as another possible reason as to why the entries might be lower at the hunts today. Back then, a lot of people entered their dogs even if they weren't quite ready to win a hunt in hopes that they would come in with plus points and earn some of the required 100 points required for a Nite Champion degree. Today, a hunter is less likely to enter a dog in a hunt if they aren't quite ready because he knows he has to win the cast in order to be considered for placement.

On another note, I do like the idea of recasting to get a winner if you have two or more casts. If you have two casts of Nite Champions and only one comes back with plus points, then award the winner without recasting. If both casts have plus points, then hunt it off with the cast winner getting the nite champion win. That is a good idea. I do feel you need to award a winner if that late round fails to score plus points though. I wouldn't be too happy if I went out in an early round and beat the other dogs in my cast with plus points only to not get a win because my late round cast failed to bring in the plus points. Also, consideration would need to be given to make these hunts a little shorter, an hour or maybe an hour and a half to allow a late round option so we aren't pulling into home after daylight.

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Freddy Wells
Plus Point English
Mounds, Oklahoma

Home of:
UKC DUAL GR CH PKC CH CHKC Money Winner ALL GRAND YOGI (GR NITE CH MOORE'S HARDTIME ALL GRAND HORN x DUAL GR CH ENGLISHPRIDE'S LITTLE LIZ) 2017 UKC Performance and PKC Super Stakes Sire

UKC DUAL GR CH TREE ROCKN NELLY (DUAL GR CH PKC GOLD CH MAIN STREET ROY X GR NITE CH PKC CH INDIAN RIDGE CINDY) Littermate sister to 2013 UKC WORLD CH GR NITE CH MAIN STREET JOHN THE BAPTIST

PLUS POINT ZINGO (DUAL GRAND CH '98 ENGLISH HALL OF FAME WILCOX THUNDER BINGO semen X CH NITE CH CLONES FRONT PAGE) The only living direct son of Bingo alive today!

Gone but not forgotten:

UKC GR NITE CH PKC CH PLUS POINT BLUE BOY BRUISER (66 "canes" stored at OnceFrozen) Direct son of DUAL GR CH PKC CH CLEAR CREEK CADILLAC JACK x CH GR NITE CH '95 UKC World Hunt High Scoring English Female WELLS' LITTLE PATCH

CH GR NITE CH WELLS' LITTLE PATCH (High Scoring English Female 1995 UKC World Hunt) Direct Daughter of GR NITE CH PKC GOLD CH DARON'S BLUE REB (LUMIS) x GR NITE CH PKC GOLD CH ACHA WORLD CH BUFFALO CREEK PATCH

GR NITE CH PKC CH CLEAR CREEK MISSY II (Sister to Dual Grand Clear Creek Cadillac Jack and mother of ACHA World Champion PKC Silver CH Raef's Dollar Bill)

Hate to poop on you wish list but...the late round idea is ridiculous. Yea, I want to hunt until the deadline at 2 or 3 in the morning then go back out until daylight. How stupid! No one would go to a coon hunt then! It's been my experience that when people want to change the rules it's because they Can't win the way they already are...so change them! Most of you have Never owned a Gr Nite Ch and probably never will unless you buy it. Cause with your Whinning you will sure never make one a Gr. as for the Gr Nite Cast hunts I've been on (and its been alot)generally the scores a relatively low. Due to all 4 dogs going and getting spit treed in 4 different directions. I wouldnt call that sorry dogs or easy wins,You burn lots of time on them! Yes there are some sorry Gr Nites but overall They Earned it and certainly deserve it! Leave it the way it is. As for dogs being better 20 or 30 years ago...you are Dead Wrong there. You've just forgotten, don't really know , or you are living in the past!!!

What about adding a 3rd title of Superior Grand Night Champion? 5 Grand Night wins to make Superior Grand Night? I'm pretty sure that years ago UKC considered doing this but it never happened.

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

quote:

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Originally posted by ov_blues
What about adding a 3rd title of Superior Grand Night Champion? 5 Grand Night wins to make Superior Grand Night? I'm pretty sure that years ago UKC considered doing this but it never happened.

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quote:

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Originally posted by T Felderman
Overall were the Grand Nites of 20-25 years ago better than todays Grand Nites? Why?

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"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

Late round

I'm a big fan of the late round hunt off, I think it would say more about the hound that would win the overall hunt! Also think the late round should have a non hunting guide & judge.

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Originally posted by Fred Harroun
maybe PKC needs to change ther rules also,lets say you have to have plus points to win your cast and win the money.

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how about number of dogs in hunt score and how many hunts dog was entered in to get title.something like a pad . i like the htx pass to make nt

Ive been hunting in all types of coon hunts since the late 60's and have seen lots of changes.Back in the old days, the entries were high because there werent many hunts, maybe one or two a month.It was hard to make a ch. and real hard to make a grand.Now, theres a hunt 6nighys a week. A hunters money only goes so far. In Miss., Most hunts are small.6up to 15-20. Often, there arr more ch. casts than reg.This tells me that it is Too easy to make a ch. It is still hard to finish a dog to grand. I would like to see the point system changed to reflect the smaller entries or just award cast wins and no points.5 cast wins with 1 of thoe wins being a first to make ch. Leave the 5wins for grand alone. That system would keep most dogs in the reg. class longer, keeping a few more entries coming to the hunts.

My vote is NO Change to UKC titles. It's a long tradition and proven system... Gas is to high anyway to travel twice as much to title a dog...

The most important thing to know about titles is WHO and HOW they made them.. That makes all the difference and is what really matters.

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Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

I think the idea of a dog having to go hunting, strike, trail and tree a coon ALONE before being eligible to compete for any title (Including Show titles) would be great. Too many well built, beautiful culls in the world now. Then let em compete just like it is set up now. Don't change a thing. That might help with the non-worthy dogs receiving unearned titles. JMO

I dont believe it should be måde harder as some put it to title a dog...but ukc would do alot better to me it seems if they gave back other then a useless trophy or plac i mean come on i just spent money to enter 40 bucks in gas to get there 20 bucks or so to go hunt then come back and 40 or more bucks in gas to go back Home with a useless paper weight if I win...wonder wth pkc locals are doing so Well around here and ukc only have enough for maybe Two good cast....that way møre dogs show up....im a firm believer in the htx titel though here gonna have four down here this year gonna take this pr female if I got the time.

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Been foolen with walkers since I was five be
foolen with them on the day I die.

quote:

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Originally posted by Surveyor
If any changes need to be made, it needs to be in the arena of so many cast wins to make a title, not so many first places. You can only compete against what is in your cast and if your cast isn't in near as good of coon country as the next cast, it does not mean your cast winner is a lesser dog than the next cast winner.

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English Hound
Dexter (Timber Cutter X Cedar Creek Bee)

Bluetick Hound
Liz (Davis Creek So Blue Slug x Watsons Smoky Mtn Blue Zip)

Gone but never forgotten
Briar (Andersons Screaming Blue Zues X Triple D All Grand Puddles)
Blue (Thunder St. Nick X Fosters Little Frosty)

Proudly use and sale
Nite Rider Hollow Lights

the people that think it was easier years ago to finish a dog didnt hunt around here.... true they gave 10 places it they had that many plus points but you still had to have a first and the hunts where usually 60 to 70 dogs.... we also had dogs that split regular back then... they didnt pack all the time

quote:

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Originally posted by Surveyor
If any changes need to be made, it needs to be in the arena of so many cast wins to make a title, not so many first places. You can only compete against what is in your cast and if your cast isn't in near as good of coon country as the next cast, it does not mean your cast winner is a lesser dog than the next cast winner.

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Home of:
A couple blue haired potlickers

Gone but not forgotten:
Nt Ch Fanny's Midnite Blue Annie - aka Sodie Pop R.I.P. - I will miss you old girl

Nt Ch Becky’s Midnite Blue Hank - R.I.P. Old Boy, thank you for the memories

Gr Nt Ch S&E's Midnite Lite Blue Snow (Co-Owned with my good friend Harry Eidenier) - We had a blast following you ole girl!

I've said it once and I'll say it again. If you want to improve the quality of titled hounds then change the rules that in order to get a Nite Ch or GrNtCh title your dog must have the HTX title. This should all but eliminate "me too" dogs with titles. It is a simple fix.

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Travis Brittain
Orebank Creek Kennels
Know Jesus.....Know Peace
No Jesus.....No Peace

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Originally posted by Vic Stoll
I agree, to earn Nt Ch, you could leave the point system the same, but make it 7 cast wins or 150 points, whichever comes first. This way the tempation is lost to pencil whip the score card or hunt off buckets for that 1st place.

To earn Gr Nt Ch, come up with a point system as well. Just like the current system, five 1st places would get you there, or 10 cast wins with at least one 1st among those 10. Whichever one is achieved first.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bullet
I've said it once and I'll say it again. If you want to improve the quality of titled hounds then change the rules that in order to get a Nite Ch or GrNtCh title your dog must have the HTX title. This should all but eliminate "me too" dogs with titles. It is a simple fix.

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