UKC Forums - UKC vs PKC or Coondog vs Babbling me too!!

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-- UKC vs PKC or Coondog vs Babbling me too!! (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928306586)

Posted by boots_o1 on 03-17-2013 09:46 AM:

Lol I need a call ....."on what the bull"?

Posted by mike fleming on 03-17-2013 05:03 PM:

Turn them loose in the middle of a big field and make to call the minuse the babblers but most don't have the ba-ls to make the call.

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Posted by Travis Brown on 03-17-2013 05:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jdc
I would not be against the countdown at all but fact is babbling is a much bigger problem facing UKC than the count down.

You are correct in my opinion, babbling is the bigger problem. Those dogs that cover after four minutes are not the ones that consistently win by me tooing because they are not covering very fast. they will not beat the five minutes half the time and will get minused for coming in after the five if the coon is seen. Its those dogs that cover in the first 30 seconds or less that are the winning me too dogs and the countdown will not stop them.

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Posted by JeepsandGsds on 03-17-2013 05:09 PM:

Re: UKC vs PKC or Coondog vs Babbling me too!!

quote:
Originally posted by JimmyJohnson
Boys I have about had it with the mentality of strike points being equal to tree points. I have had a young female that is a get alone by herself with a coon dog. Every breath pressure tree dog that trees coons no matter where you drop her. She is a third or fourth strike dog and a first tree dog. This female has only been in 3 cast all PKC hunts and the ONLY dog to tree coons in her cast each time. she has lost her cast every time by 25 points. The babbling me to cover dogs are winning over a coon dog. Wake up people !!!!! The dog that trees all the coons has a hard time winning in PKC today. Heck there are folks even breeding for the automatic strike dog that covers on a squeak. I guess money really is the root of all evil in more ways than one. I'm just thankful UKC has not compromised the value of the coon dog by keeping the tree most valued at 125 points. Guess i won't be wasting any more money in PKC. I have become a UKC supporter. Have any of you witnessed the same thing going on sense PKC hunts have become more popular ?

how could she have lost if she was alone with the only coon seen plus point win in every kc no matter how many circle you got

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Posted by kenney Clark on 03-17-2013 05:38 PM:

Talk about Covering dogs and get Credit for Doing it, Its U.K.C. Not P.K.C. P.K.C. has Decending Tree points. anything that trees after 1 Min. is treed for 25 points. Not 75 after covering 4 mins. later. You have to strike the coon before you can tree it. So Tree points in pkc only being 100 does not affect the outcome.If you got a dog that will go get treed. and Usually The high point total is not needed in pkc, like you have to have in ukc. I hunt both Registries, And enjoy both. Ukc rewards the Hitchhiking Dogs more From what I seen. (are we allowed to Talk about this ? ) lol . But as far as the better Kennel club, Its Hands down U.K.C. without a dogs U.K.C. papers there worthless. Everyone has competition ( including U.K.C. ) I enjoy both registries. They dont have to be the Same , and should not be. Thats what makes them different. There are rules in U.K.C. I Think still needs changed. I know I spend money to both of them. So They Prob. Appreciate Me to . LOL.

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Posted by headless01 on 03-17-2013 06:08 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lakeland Kennel
[B] I know of a number of UKC Grand Nite Champion silent dogs.

i know of 1 grand night champion that has never treed a coon, period. and the owner will laugh and tell you he studs him out all the time. hmmmm.

theres a difference in babbling and trash runners that fall of on a coon, and both kc's have a good #% of them. the old competition and pleasure hunters would cull a babbler, quick. babbling is the worst,and what makes it unbearable is the people that hunt them,saying he's a real good trackdog.
alotta hunters have never seen a true 1st strike dog.

as far as treeing, i would like a rule that when a dog trees first and another dog backs it, you ask the handler of 1st tree dog does he want to tree his dog, if he says no, then let man tree his dog that backed him for first.

Posted by bob country jr on 03-18-2013 02:38 AM:

The walker folks did it to themselfs first the all grand tree monster now the babbling.I bet they stand in the pen and bark.just remember you created it.

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Posted by Nat Thomas on 03-18-2013 12:50 PM:

Re: UKC vs PKC or Coondog vs Babbling me too!!

quote:
Originally posted by JimmyJohnson
Boys I have about had it with the mentality of strike points being equal to tree points. I have had a young female that is a get alone by herself with a coon dog. Every breath pressure tree dog that trees coons no matter where you drop her. She is a third or fourth strike dog and a first tree dog. This female has only been in 3 cast all PKC hunts and the ONLY dog to tree coons in her cast each time. she has lost her cast every time by 25 points. The babbling me to cover dogs are winning over a coon dog. Wake up people !!!!! The dog that trees all the coons has a hard time winning in PKC today. Heck there are folks even breeding for the automatic strike dog that covers on a squeak. I guess money really is the root of all evil in more ways than one. I'm just thankful UKC has not compromised the value of the coon dog by keeping the tree most valued at 125 points. Guess i won't be wasting any more money in PKC. I have become a UKC supporter. Have any of you witnessed the same thing going on sense PKC hunts have become more popular ?

I am calling BS on this one. Unless you are the slowest handler known to man and sit back because you have no confidence in your dog, getting beat by a me-too dog several casts in a row when your dogs is Treeing the coons in a registry with a tree countdown does happen but not 3 times in a row when you're dog is "the only one Treeing a coon". That would mean that the other dog was there with 30 seconds... which means youre dog wasnt the only one treeing coons on those casts. I am going to make an educated guess and say that this is completely made up or the handler caused the dog to lose more than the dog covering.

Also, if you think UKC has the best dogs overall, you haven't been to many other KC Hunts.

Posted by walkerdog1 on 03-18-2013 01:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bob country jr
The walker folks did it to themselfs first the all grand tree monster now the babbling.I bet they stand in the pen and bark.just remember you created it.

there's babbling metoo dogs in all breads not just walkers I've seen several babbling blue dogs around here

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Posted by bob country jr on 03-18-2013 02:42 PM:

Re: Re: UKC vs PKC or Coondog vs Babbling me too!!

quote:
Originally posted by Nat Thomas
I am calling BS on this one. Unless you are the slowest handler known to man and sit back because you have no confidence in your dog, getting beat by a me-too dog several casts in a row when your dogs is Treeing the coons in a registry with a tree countdown. Also, if you think UKC has the best dogs overall, you haven't been to many other KC Hunts.

Nat,this one of the best post I have seen you make.

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Posted by breezyoaks on 03-18-2013 04:43 PM:

agree

quote:
Originally posted by mleck
i agree that babbling is a huge problem but it is very hard to enforce something that 75% of the judges or hunters is not smart enough to know what is happening. Amazes me how old honest gets struck at a 100yds every drop and they are considered a heck of a strike dog. Lol its hard to fix ignorance. The tree count down is something very easy to enforce and NEEDS to become part of ukc if they want to improve the quality of the coondog . Just my opinion of corse

Marcus....I'm no comp hunter but read your statement and thought, "boy, he has that right on the nutz".

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Posted by breezyoaks on 03-18-2013 04:46 PM:

agree again

quote:
Originally posted by Bullet
If you want to really cut down on the number of titled ME TOO dogs then take this advise. UKC should put in a rule that requires a dog to have an HTX title prior to being eligible for a Nite Ch title. PKC should initiate a similar rule. Then a Nite Ch title and a PKC ch title should never be a ME TOO dog.

hard to argue this statement too................

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Posted by Nat Thomas on 03-18-2013 04:52 PM:

Re: agree again

quote:
Originally posted by breezyoaks
hard to argue this statement too................

It's easy to argue that statement. If a dog Treeing a coon by itself proves something then the level of dogs that we are used to are on completely different levels. I had a collie that would tree a coon by itself. Hell, I've treed coon by myself!!!! Treeing coons by itself is not the mark of a Coondog, it's the mark of a dog doing what it's bred to do which shouldn't be a surprise to people or carry any weight. If a dog can't tree a coon by itself, cull it, if it can... Congratulations, your COONHOUND just treed a coon. An HTX title proves absolutely nothing. On top of that, it's actually easier to cheat in an HTX hunt... It will never happen because #1 the registries aren't gonna murder their entries by making people go to HTX hunts before they can compete and #2 if you are getting beat by me too dogs regularly then you need to worry more about what's on the end of YOUR lead strap instead of worrying about what's on the end of his. A Coondog is gonna beat a me too dog 95% of the time. If a me too dog is striking first and covering for 75 or 50 and your dog is striking second or third and getting first trees on coons then who wins? The Coondog.

If more people would quit making excuses for why they got beat and spend that energy training Coondogs and culling the dogs that aren't up to par, this wouldn't even be an issue and people wouldn't take me too dogs to nite hunts expecting to win.

I'm all for the idea that in the end, all that matters is someone being happy with what they are feeding. Coonhunting is my full time job... But I am the minority... For most it is a hobby and the point of a hobby is to pass the time and to cause happiness so how can UKC of the other KC's regulate what makes you happy?

I am also a firm believer in 95% of people don't know what a real Coondog is.. I mean a GOOD one... If more people would take the time to search out a good one and go hunt with it a few nights and then strive to have a dog as good or better, this wouldn't be an issue either....

Real Coondogs.... Helping me-too dogs donate entries since the beginning of time...

Posted by tim griffin on 03-18-2013 05:21 PM:

Nat I usually agree with you on about everything you post but I can't with the last post least not everything in it I hunted a female for a gentleman that she has been brought up on this thread. She won over 80% of her cast in both kc but couldn't tree a coon by herself in a month but carried a first strike and could cover better than anything I ever seen if they wasn't careful I would have first tree two. She wasn't doing the work the coon dog was she just followed around but she never would pass a htx hunt but yet she is a dual grand and been in finals of both kc world hunts

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Posted by bob country jr on 03-18-2013 05:22 PM:

Ukc will never have a count down they would loose more money on entrys then they are now.

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Posted by boots_o1 on 03-18-2013 05:25 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tim griffin
Nat I usually agree with you on about everything you post but I can't with the last post least not everything in it I hunted a female for a gentleman that she has been brought up on this thread. She won over 80% of her cast in both kc but couldn't tree a coon by herself in a month but carried a first strike and could cover better than anything I ever seen if they wasn't careful I would have first tree two. She wasn't doing the work the coon dog was she just followed around but she never would pass a htx hunt but yet she is a dual grand and been in finals of both kc world hunts

Well you nailed it right on head of that black headed dog

Posted by Vic Stoll on 03-18-2013 05:30 PM:

Re: Re: agree again

quote:
Originally posted by Nat Thomas
#2 if you are getting beat by me too dogs regularly then you need to worry more about what's on the end of YOUR lead strap instead of worrying about what's on the end of his. A Coondog is gonna beat a me too dog 95% of the time. If a me too dog is striking first and covering for 75 or 50 and your dog is striking second or third and getting first trees on coons then who wins? The Coondog.

in the end, all that matters is someone being happy with what they are feeding.

AMEN!!

Folks also need to be honest with themselves when they are hunting one that is semi-silent. Don't lay the label of an "honest strike dog" on it. Admit the short coming, take your medicine, & go on. If they are a 1st tree type dog & are accurate you will still win your share.

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Posted by Nat Thomas on 03-18-2013 05:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by tim griffin
Nat I usually agree with you on about everything you post but I can't with the last post least not everything in it I hunted a female for a gentleman that she has been brought up on this thread. She won over 80% of her cast in both kc but couldn't tree a coon by herself in a month but carried a first strike and could cover better than anything I ever seen if they wasn't careful I would have first tree two. She wasn't doing the work the coon dog was she just followed around but she never would pass a htx hunt but yet she is a dual grand and been in finals of both kc world hunts

So, if she can't tree a coon by herself then how did she get in the finals of the Ukc world? Round 2 is going out by yourself to tree a coon... And 75 strike and 125 tree will beat her all night every night, and in the other KC 75 strike and 100 tree will beat her all night every night. Most people have no clue how to minus a dog for babbling... Striking off the lead strap and carrying 100 strike and then taking off running to the first dog that gets treed is babbling... Minus her. If the other members of the cast are buddied up with the other handler and have any stones at all they will vote with the judge. If its 2-2 vote, the judges call stands. Minused. I can honestly say that I've only been beat by a babbling me too dog twice and that's because my dog made a mistake. I've beat a whole bunch of them though because I will minus one in a hot second!!!! Start using those rules the way they are intended!!!! Babbling dogs should not receive undeserved credit so lay the pencil to em!!!! If they get mad, oh well, hand them a tissue and a tampon and go collect that CW.

Posted by FGS on 03-18-2013 08:23 PM:

Jimmie
If she is what you say she is is she for sell?

Posted by RRILEY on 03-18-2013 09:42 PM:

Probably the best post I've ever read Nat.

Posted by boxmanwillie on 03-18-2013 10:42 PM:

COVERING DOGS

BOYS IF YOU WANT TO BE HONEST BOTH KCS HAVE COVER DOGS AND BABBLING IDIOTS

Posted by John Garrison on 03-18-2013 11:19 PM:

right on Nat! Nat for president !

Posted by WinBigB&T on 03-19-2013 12:12 AM:

Real coondog

Boy I tell ya. I set and read this stuff and just have to laugh! You all set and talk about "what a real coon dog is"! Let me be the first to say I don't have one by my standards! What I do have is the best dog I could find that I love to hunt. Witch im pretty sure that's what about 95% of the rest of u guys have. That being said that's why my junk is at the hunts ( yes it's a hobby to me cause I have a real job) because at the end of the day it has nothing to do with my dog it has to do with me it's what I like to do! The dog don't care what his title is he doesn't care if its an added purse or a word hunt for that matter! YOU DO ...the owner...the handler.... The man that bread the pup! The dog is out doing what he was trained to do. Make u happy! At the end of the day it think it should be realised what this night hunt sport is all about! FUN!! our enjoyment. Not bitching cause u lose!

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