UKC Forums - with the emphasis on early starting natural tree dogs

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- Blueticks (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=48)
-- with the emphasis on early starting natural tree dogs (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928305721)

Posted by rance56 on 03-07-2013 03:54 PM:

Re: Broaden your horizons

quote:
Originally posted by ICB

One of them was putting it on the old dogs at 6 months. I have never hunted down there but they told me the pups front legs were bare and raw because he had so much drive that the brush and thorns kept his legs hairless scratched and bleeding. At 5 months old they had to spend about 8 hours getting a boat to get to him because he had treed on an island in a big river. Unfortunately the stud dog here in MO that they were out of quit reproducing way to early.

The other pup that went down to Texas went to some guy with a dog named Garrett. He was putting my pup in ads before he was 1 yr old. "Unbelievable" is how he described him. He ended up being sold for a pile of money to a guy out east and he was hit and killed within a month or two. These two Texas sensations were both out of my 3rd place reproducing female.

no offense, but nothing in the above proves a top finished out hound.

Mr. Mead has been very gratious enough to host me twice at his place. I was always impressed with his hounds and the work he puts into it and as of a couple of years ago he didnt seem like he was slowing down either.

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the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

Posted by ICB on 03-07-2013 04:39 PM:

Re: Re: Broaden your horizons

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
no offense, but nothing in the above proves a top finished out hound.

Mr. Mead has been very gratious enough to host me twice at his place. I was always impressed with his hounds and the work he puts into it and as of a couple of years ago he didnt seem like he was slowing down either.

Exactly! If all of the early starting pups out there turned out to be mediocre hounds when they were mature, then there wouldn't be guys raising them and consistently winning big hunts with them. There are a lot of men out there that have been breeding and winning big with these early starting pups or should I at least say NATURAL pups. Warren Haslouer was also a believer in naturals producing naturals.

You can't stereotype pups or hounds. A pup that doesnt start until 16 months may make a better hound than some of his littermates that started very early. If this was the norm people would know that if you want a shot at a top hound dont pic the early starters.

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Island City Blues

Count your blessings everyday!

Posted by rance56 on 03-07-2013 05:14 PM:

this is just my opinion, but alot of these young dogs you desrcibed are just able to tree a good track the fastest. and in ukc most of the big hunts are a one night biggest score take all and the abiove mentioned style of dogs are the ones capable of hunting buckets or hot coons and putting up large scores, but might not be the style to tree coons consistantly in texas or the deep south or in a elimination style type hunt such as the ukc world or pkc major hunts.

and also, i never really take the word on young pups or dogs until i see it myself or they really prove in the public eye

__________________
the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

Posted by ICB on 03-07-2013 05:21 PM:

all we need is some statistical info

Maybe we should start a compilation of the "top twenty" in the world hunt every year. Questions like.....

How old was your dog when it was first exposed to coon scent?

Did your dog run and tree the first time it smelled a coon?

At what age did you start hunting it?

When did it tree its first coon?

Was your dog a natural born tree dog?

Did you train your dog to be a tree dog?

This would assume that the top twenty were in fact some of the best in the country.

Next comes the question of "losing" quality though. Are dogs as good as they used to be? Were dogs 40 years ago better finished hounds than they are today? Would the top twenty from 1970 wax the the top twenty from today?

Would be interesting to see state averages or even club averages for night hunt scores from the last 50 years. Are the scores better? Are todays dogs capable of treeing more coon in a two hour hunt? Are there at least more casts bringing in plus point winners than there used to be percentage wise? The tricky part of this analysis though would be all of the unseen factors. When coon were $50-$60 each....there weren't as many to run. Every year also has different weather. Do drought years produce lower scores? The economy would also probably have some effects on it also.

Gosh this gets complex when you really start to analyze things. LOL

__________________
Island City Blues

Count your blessings everyday!

Posted by ICB on 03-07-2013 06:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
this is just my opinion, but alot of these young dogs you desrcibed are just able to tree a good track the fastest. and in ukc most of the big hunts are a one night biggest score take all and the abiove mentioned style of dogs are the ones capable of hunting buckets or hot coons and putting up large scores, but might not be the style to tree coons consistantly in texas or the deep south or in a elimination style type hunt such as the ukc world or pkc major hunts.

and also, i never really take the word on young pups or dogs until i see it myself or they really prove in the public eye

If you will notice in my first post I said that my concern would be that we may be possibly losing some cold nose ability. Which would be what you are saying above.
I raised more Jet V pups than anything else. The Quail Creek Jet dog had a 1st place win in Feb at 7 months of age on snow if my memory serves me correctly. These werent easy coon. They were so rough that the other dogs had no clue they were there type of coon. I also hunted against him down here in competition in MO when he was about 11 or 13 month(one or the other just cant remember for sure RQE I think) The other three dogs in the cast would open once in a great while, but QC Jet was moving the tracks and putting the coon on the end and had the meat. The other dogs never barked once on the trees.

I have never hunted down in South East MO but I have heard that this is the toughest place to tree coon in MO. QC Jet treed something like 8 coon down there in the early 90's to be king of hunt. They were once again tough coon....made to look easy.

I never have understood why some won't believe others when they talk about early starting pups.

My first hound came from OK....almost in Texas. Straight from Haslouer's. He ran track some his first night in the woods at 10 months old. By his third night out he ran and treed his first coon. He was never hunted with another dog or teased with a coon or anything else....he was a natural!

He never slowed down, was a deep hunter, all night tree dog. Got a 2nd on him the 2nd hunt I had ever been to. Basically got cheated out of first with him the next hunt. He located on the last drop of the hunt with about 5 minutes to go and one of the 65+ yr old guys immediately said your dogs stuck on that elk fence over there its 10 feet tall. Had I not been naive and called him treed I would have had a 1st on him. He had the meat.

His down fall was he didn't have as much nose as my later hounds did. 12 week old pup 1st drop in the woods never seen a coon ran a treed a 1/2 mile track with the meat. He never opened on it.

Why is this so hard to believe?

__________________
Island City Blues

Count your blessings everyday!

Posted by R Eversole on 03-07-2013 06:22 PM:

Early starting pups

Had a 8 month old pup that split treed by hisself from his mother had a den but started from then on.Turned out to be a super nice hound.Was independent and had the coon. Never got any pups out of him would like to have seen if he could have reproduced. He was off of mid-ohio cb and my rankins lead female. rich

Posted by rance56 on 03-07-2013 07:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ICB
If you will notice in my first post I said that my concern would be that we may be possibly losing some cold nose ability. Which would be what you are saying above.
I raised more Jet V pups than anything else. The Quail Creek Jet dog had a 1st place win in Feb at 7 months of age on snow if my memory serves me correctly. These werent easy coon. They were so rough that the other dogs had no clue they were there type of coon. I also hunted against him down here in competition in MO when he was about 11 or 13 month(one or the other just cant remember for sure RQE I think) The other three dogs in the cast would open once in a great while, but QC Jet was moving the tracks and putting the coon on the end and had the meat. The other dogs never barked once on the trees.

I have never hunted down in South East MO but I have heard that this is the toughest place to tree coon in MO. QC Jet treed something like 8 coon down there in the early 90's to be king of hunt. They were once again tough coon....made to look easy.

I never have understood why some won't believe others when they talk about early starting pups.

My first hound came from OK....almost in Texas. Straight from Haslouer's. He ran track some his first night in the woods at 10 months old. By his third night out he ran and treed his first coon. He was never hunted with another dog or teased with a coon or anything else....he was a natural!

He never slowed down, was a deep hunter, all night tree dog. Got a 2nd on him the 2nd hunt I had ever been to. Basically got cheated out of first with him the next hunt. He located on the last drop of the hunt with about 5 minutes to go and one of the 65+ yr old guys immediately said your dogs stuck on that elk fence over there its 10 feet tall. Had I not been naive and called him treed I would have had a 1st on him. He had the meat.

His down fall was he didn't have as much nose as my later hounds did. 12 week old pup 1st drop in the woods never seen a coon ran a treed a 1/2 mile track with the meat. He never opened on it.

Why is this so hard to believe?

i dont think a good track dog necessarily means it has to be cold nosed. i dont want a cold nosed dog.

no one is saying they dont believe in early starting pups, but there is alot between early starting pups and a coon dog, just like there is alot of difference between hunting in texas than indiana.

as far as qc jet, when i got back into blueticks from a younge days, i went up to eds and bought a dog off of warrior creek cw which was off of qc jet. larry harvey had her. we won the pkc state hunt one year and placed second the next with a pup off of her. not many other blues can claim anything like this. with that being said, i still fealt i wanted a better dog. the blood you are refering to, i have hunted with many of them, both ones i have owend and ones owned by others.

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the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

Posted by ICB on 03-07-2013 09:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
i dont think a good track dog necessarily means it has to be cold nosed. i dont want a cold nosed dog.

This is what I have always found interesting about hounds/men. Seems like you could have 20 guys go to the woods listen to three unknown dogs hunt. Then have the 20 guys describe what the dogs were like. You would get 20 totally different stories as to what happened.

Like your statement above for example. Just a difference in ways guys describe things I guess. I owned a sister to QC Jet. At 8 months old she could burn a hot track ahead of fast running walker dogs(3 and 4 years old). Got a lot of comments like, "man that bitch can flat out fly" from guys hunting Lipper and Sackett dogs. If I had a picture of her on here everyone would say from her looks that she would have been an old fashioned track straddling too much dewlap bluetick.

On a bad night she would be the only dog that opened on track and the only dog treeing when she got to the tree with the meat in it.

So am I wrong to say she was a cold nosed dog? How would you describe a dog that can flat fly on a hot track(1st tree dog on hot tracks), and can run and tree coon that nothing else even opens on because they are a hot nosed dog that cant even smell coon have been there? She was also good at winding layups from a long ways off.

Most of the time(especially this time of year) if a dog can tree two coon by itself in a night hunt it wil have 1st 2nd or 3rd. Not rare for 20 casts to got out and 3 or 4 casts treed coons and place the rest went zero or a lot of minus.

__________________
Island City Blues

Count your blessings everyday!

Posted by cody jaster on 03-08-2013 01:02 AM:

I've hunted with all thoughs too, and many of them. I hunted a Finley River Walker for years and can honestly say I have never been beaten on a cast by a Bluetick. I own 2 blue dogs now ( and several in the past) but none compare to these 2. These dogs also fly through the country and get greed quick!!!! All that said...breeding blueticks have come a long way in 30 years. I would pit these two against any dog out there hunting today...including a World Ch. I might get best but they would know I had a real dog in the hunt!!!

Posted by cody jaster on 03-08-2013 01:04 AM:

I have never hunted or hunted with a Jet Dog...hard to come by here!

Posted by cody jaster on 03-08-2013 01:16 AM:

By the way I have never been a die hard bluetick man but I did start out with them a swore I would finish with them 30 years ago. I'm only 41 years old, weigh 165 lbs and I'm a work out junkie. These dogs I have today are a 1000 x's better that what I started out hunting. Rambo and Bullet for me!!!

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