UKC Forums - Something to think about

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-- Something to think about (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928305617)

Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-03-2013 02:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Toler
I can go home at night put my dog up, go in and lay down and sleep a good nights sleep knowing that I haven't knowing wronged anyone.

Tim,

I was cheated by a non-hunting judge one night on a cast. Two other cast members agreed that I was cheated. I asked the judge how do you sleep at night? He said like a baby.

That was when I realized people who cheat aren't bothered by it. It was also when I realized that the hunters must do their part to get our sport back.

Each person who pays an entry takes on the responsibility to make sure their cast to scored correctly. If you don't like the people judging, then simply take the card. That was when I started having better hunts.

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Posted by M. B. Jones on 03-03-2013 03:37 PM:

When I judge a cast, if I have to minus someone if they disagree with me I take the card and show the rule to them.

When you go pleasure hunting hunt against your buddies on the scorecard. Teach each other the rules.
The club that I am a member of has not had akill hunt in 10-12 years. We hunt on scorecard year round for our monthly hunts.
If we have someone who has never hunted in competition situation us "older guys" help explain the rules and how they should be applied.

I have given away more wins than I have won because i will not pitch my dog when they are not there or other tricks.
If my dog strikes I strike it, if it trees I tree it.

I do not worry about trying to outhandle you, I want my dog to outperform yours.

Posted by perry co cooner on 03-04-2013 12:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by M. B. Jones
When I judge a cast, if I have to minus someone if they disagree with me I take the card and show the rule to them.

When you go pleasure hunting hunt against your buddies on the scorecard. Teach each other the rules.
The club that I am a member of has not had akill hunt in 10-12 years. We hunt on scorecard year round for our monthly hunts.
If we have someone who has never hunted in competition situation us "older guys" help explain the rules and how they should be applied.

I have given away more wins than I have won because i will not pitch my dog when they are not there or other tricks.
If my dog strikes I strike it, if it trees I tree it.

I do not worry about trying to outhandle you, I want my dog to outperform yours.

Can't get a better response than this.

__________________
Al Tarantella

Posted by GA DAWG on 03-04-2013 12:34 AM:

Jim, You big Bully lmao!!! I agree with ya.

__________________
Michael Ghorley

Posted by Bobby Reynolds on 03-04-2013 02:31 AM:

Not knowing/ understanding the rules has caused more problems in the hunts than anything in my opinion. Too many people are showing up at the hunts and trying to learn the rules as they go. Too many people are showing up at the hunts and only have the basic rules in there head. When it gets into a situation where they are not sure of the rules, they want it the way they think it should be and if not they accuse someone who knows of being a cheater if he enforces it correctly. Weak judges are a bad problem also. If you draw a weak judge that is afraid of someone getting mad, the wrong dog ends up winning the cast. I rarely put a question on the card. But the few times I have it was because of someone not knowing/understanding the rules. Not from cheaters. Jim is right. This is a sport. And like any sport, you have to be prepared, know the rules, and have some backbone. If not, don't expect to win much. As with any sport, you have to train and be prepared. You can't sit around in the coffee shop all week shooting the breeze and then go out and win a marathon. Hunting is no different. You train, you know the rules, you enforce the rules, and you will win your share. Just about everyone I know who complains on a regular basis about the hunts have alot in common. Here are just a few of the common problems. They are hunting a dog that is not capable of winning and they just can't see it.(Kinda like racing a pinto against a corvette).
They do not know/understand rules and want to argue instaed of just finding the correct rule on the back of the card.
Weak judges.
One of the real bad ones is a paid handler feeding ******** to the owner because they lost and then the owner thinking his dog was cheated.
And hey, some people are just plain stupid and want to argue over everything no matter if they are winning or loosing.
Some people, like some who are on here regular, just think they are slick handlers and want to win at any cost. LOL I would love to draw some of the idiots on here and show them how slick/stupid they really are. A honest guy can beat a slick handler anyday of the week. The only way you can be slick is if you are dealing with someone who don't know the rules, a weak judge, or a kid. I just don't see how you call that slick. LOL I would rather win the cast and have the respect of everyone in the cast.Hey, everything written here is just my opinion and isn't really directed toward anyone.

Posted by patches9452 on 03-04-2013 02:46 AM:

knowing the rules are just as important as having a good dog... this is a team sport of one dog and handler against the others.... a super dog and a poor handler want win much just the same as a super handler and a poor dog want.... it takes both to win consistantly

Posted by Jordan120 on 03-04-2013 02:47 AM:

I have hunted the hunts for almost 8 years now and I know the rules really good because I studying the rule book alot and understood every rule very well. And when I go to the hunts and draw someone who ain't never hunted in a hunt and they act like they know everything then I use a rule and beat them they say I cheated. No I didn't cheat I just know the rules very good

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Posted by Tim Toler on 03-04-2013 02:54 AM:

Bobby,

Trust me I totally understand what you are saying about the training for the sport... I have been succesfull at every "sport" I have competed and coached in because I do exactly what you are saying about the preparing part... and all I was saying is for all the other "sports" I have been invovled with has rules meetings that all officials and coaches have to attend so that everyone is on the same page... I have competed and coached high school and college level sports.. I have officiated high school sports... I have competed in showing horses in world celebrations.. I have judged world celebration horse shows... and in all of those they have rule clinics to educate everyone as to what the rules are and how they are applied...

I have read the back of the score card over and over... I have read through the advisory... I have read post on here... and I for one would like to know after I read a rule and have it in my head if I am correct with my thinking or not... because you get setting around at the local club listening to people talk about the different scenarios with the simple version of the rules on the back of the scorecard and everything starts to change...

and reading here this weekend... it seems that I am not the only one that feels this way... but hey for everyone that thanks I am complaining about being cheated or something I am not.. just trying to think of ways to educate people on the rules as a whole which would in turn make the comp. side of this sport a better place..

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Posted by Bobby Reynolds on 03-04-2013 03:28 AM:

Tim

I was not directing anything toward you and hope you didn't take it that way. I most likely said more than I should have. LOL I do that alot.
I am sure you know the rules and I was not taking your post as you complaining. I think it is great you are wanting to educate people who don't know. Problem is, it is alot easieer for some to complain than to learn. I have no problem helping anyone who does not know the rules. I just don't think a sanctioned event is the place to learn them. Our club has club hunts for that purpose. Kids think it is great win they beat an adult who has done alot of winning. Gives them the confidence to go on to sanctioned events. Kinda like a practice game in baseball or basketball. I know I was getting a little off subject with my above post. Didn't really mean to. The easiest cast I ever judged was 4 top handlers who knew the rules. The most enjoyable was a cast in the PKC Youth world championship 2 years ago. Not all those kids knew the rules, but they had respect for me and when I made a call they respected what I said. I judged it just as a adult cast, strict. That is the only way for the right dog and handler to win.

Posted by Tim Toler on 03-04-2013 03:44 AM:

Bobby,

I didnt in no way take what you said as being meant towards me... that is the bad thing about posting here is one doesn't know the tune in which you type... LOL...

Sometimes I read here or post myself and then the replies from some here amaze me...

This is a hobby for me... but trust me... I don't go to lose... I go to win... I am very competitive and to be competitive at anything you have to be prepared... just to show you how I am... was in a cast Friday night... my dog was split treed and was slick... told the judge it is slick minus me... we get to looking at the score card right after we cut loose on the next drop... and I noticed something on the score card... now we are talking about the very first tree made... I treed once we got there my dog was split about 10 yard from the other dogs... and we only used like 15 minutes on that drop... but I treed in for 75.. had struck in for 75.. so when we were looking at the score card I noticed that the judge didn't bump me up to 125 because of being split... but I told him that I was 200 minus not 150... but if I hadn't said anything no one would've count it... not that it mattered later anyhow but at that time I could've...

Posted by Nat Thomas on 03-04-2013 08:14 AM:

You want to add to the number of people coming to hunts but you want to add more stipulations. Does anyone actually think this is gonna work? Lol. Come on guys. 95% of people who claim to get cheated could have either 1. Stopped it by knowing the rules 2. Having enough balls to stand up for themselves or 3. Thought they got cheated but actually just got beat because they didn't know the rules.

You know what the #1 problem with UKC nite hunts is? Theres way too many **** crybabies trying to kill each other for a yellow slip.

Here's my suggestion... If someone can't take the time to read the rules, learn how to apply the rules, and then stand up for themselves then they should probably find a new sport to compete in... Like chess... And stick to pleasure hunting.

I can count how many times I've been cheated in the last several years on 1 hand... And they were a couple of cast members buddying up which no amount of qualified judges is going to fix. But I also know the rules and won't lay down and take it.

I don't go to many UKC hunts... Just a couple a year... But I'm at the other KC hunts all of the time and I hear more complaining, bickering, arguing, talk of mean dogs, cheating, etc... At those couple UKC hunts than I do all of the others combined. Wonder why that is.... Another thing I noticed is the same people who are bitching and complaining about getting cheated are the same ones arguing all night Long in a cast so good riddance...

Here's another question... What's gonna stop a cheater from going to some rules seminars and becoming a "qualified judge"?

Posted by prostockpat on 03-04-2013 02:23 PM:

try and swallow this

at rqe last year.
non-hunting judge/guide.
didn't know it at the time,but he had a local buddy he was there to guide.

3 dog cast.my hound and the "buddy" had the 2 best dogs by far.other was in minus all night and not a contender.
2nd to last drop.dogs get treed,my dog was split by herself and had the coon 40 yards from others.so i got a good lead.we walked 200 yards re-cut.they hit a hot track right off the lead and are together.i take 1st strike,
track goes bad slowly{i think it was so hot,they took it backwards}got to boo-hoo'n for a while.finally the dog i was in the fight with comes treed.he trees him.other dog trees with him.my female won't tree.
5 is up we go in,looks like a den.we start shinning,nothing on the outside.
my female comes in after 5 more min. of trying to get the track out of there and starts tree'n{a little}

then after my dog comes in to closed tree....JUDGE TEARS OUT BOTTOM OF TREE and crawls inside and says "coons there". i had a feeling something was up by the way my female acted.....i look NO COON,no place for one.was not hollow very far.so things got heated.judge would NOT let anybody else look inside{not even his spectator son}.plussed his buddy and minused my dog....said he was only one that had to see coon,and walked away.
then i read on here that dog won enitre hunt!!!

"hometown cooking" in onsted michigan.

swallow that down.

Posted by Nat Thomas on 03-04-2013 02:58 PM:

Did you stand there and take it after he did it? First off, did you question the judge plussing a coon that the majority of the cast didn't see? You said the judge was the only one that saw it. Secondly, he can't tear out the bottom of a tree... Question it and take it back. Chances are they would Either catch themselves up with a lie or just flat tell on themselves not knowing any better. You could have stopped that dead in its tracks.

Posted by Rough Northern on 03-04-2013 03:00 PM:

I haven't read all the post. The attendance numbers will come back up when everyone gets a winner. Not many people put the time in for a winner, so in essance I guess the numbers will stay where they are. jmho

Posted by Tim Toler on 03-04-2013 03:10 PM:

Pat things like that you will never get stopped... but like I have said I am just trying to think of ways to make things better and to change the perspective of people about the hunts and hiw they aee handled and ran... but it seems that some don't want that to happen or anything to be looked beside belittling bad mouthing or trying to keep running people away.. but I am not the tyoe of person to become a p**** just so I can say I won... I will keep hinting and hooing that the others in my cast is gentleman like myself.. but some here I hooe I never draw out with.. I just told my buddy I will compete until I get my 3 more nitech wins to grand my little female then I may get her htx.. which will not be a problem.. then I think slow down a lot on the ukc side... even though I have another two females untitled.. one I don't know if I will ever put in hunts but one I was going to start after we finish my nitech...

Posted by Nat Thomas on 03-04-2013 03:16 PM:

It's not about running people away. There is no perfect sport... More than likely the fat kid will only play basketball for a year or 2.. The short skinny kid will only play football for a year or 2... The athletic kid Won't be in the chess club... There is no Perfect sport, some people just aren't cut out for nite hunts. When you factor in all of the other things than can cause someone to stop going, we should be happy with the numbers we have.

Posted by Tim Toler on 03-04-2013 03:23 PM:

I understand what you are saying nat.. but I guess I am amazed that so many has the an outlook like that... that would be like saying hey I am happy with where I am at in my life instead of trying to improve my situation.. question for everyone then.. do you think ukc is the best kc going has no romm for improvements there absolutely no changes needed.. should ukc have no worries of loosing their status as the top registery for coonhounds..

Posted by prostockpat on 03-04-2013 03:28 PM:

nat

things got heated!!
he said he was non-hunting judge,there is no cast vote.
he told me if we go back he knows master of hounds and that i would be scratched.

Posted by BIGOAK on 03-04-2013 05:10 PM:

Tims idea may not work for everybody, but is it going to hurt. Wouldn't it be a good idea to educate the newcomers or would it be better to just give a newcomer the card and say turn it over here's the rules, memorize them and by the way just interpret them however you want. I think it would be better to have a seminar for some to discuss the rules and discuss how ukc wants the rules to be interpreted and applied. You can't blame people for not knowing or being ignorant if somebody hasn't offered to teach them. I can think of a hundred situations that is not worded word by word on the card or the rule book, but I've learned them by being beat, why not have something to teach them before they lose hard earned money on gas food entry's.

You can have the best dog in town win every cast you enter, know the rules better than Allen , but I guarantee you that they still get tired of dealing with people trying to scheme or plot they're way into a win,but the simple fact that everywhere you go at least one cast will have to put up with it!

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