UKC Forums - ????? about Allen's poll

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-- ????? about Allen's poll (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928301904)

Posted by ckirkham on 02-14-2013 07:25 PM:

Amen jim

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-14-2013 07:26 PM:

For a rule to work we have to be able to apply it in the woods, if the cast is spread out shining and a dog comes in hops on the tree and wacks off 10 quick barks its pretty tough to expect a judge to be shouting out minus points and a scratch in les than a minute over 3 other handled dogs that are barking. thats my point.

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 02-14-2013 07:28 PM:

O.K. Allen said it is so ... so that is it. I accept that.

However, I agree with John. I have never seen a handler strike or tree their dog if the dog comes into the tree after the cast.

I was a person who wrote letters regarding the 3rd bark rule, and pushed hard to get it changed from scratched to minus. Face it, those dogs will start being scratched simply because by the time a handler realizes his dog is there and yells strike my dog that dog has already spit out 10-20 chops.

Add to that everything else that can be going on at the tree a slight distraction means some one is going home for no other reason than too much going on at one time in a 10 second time frame for a person to fully comprehend.

Trust me when I was writing those letters this kind of rule isn't what I envisioned.

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Posted by K. Singletary on 02-14-2013 07:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
O.K. Allen said it is so ... so that is it. I accept that.

However, I agree with John. I have never seen a handler strike or tree their dog if the dog comes into the tree after the cast.

I was a person who wrote letters regarding the 3rd bark rule, and pushed hard to get it changed from scratched to minus. Face it, those dogs will start being scratched simply because by the time a handler realizes his dog is there and yells strike my dog that dog has already spit out 10-20 chops.

Add to that everything else that can be going on at the tree a slight distraction means some one is going home for no other reason than too much going on at one time in a 10 second time frame for a person to fully comprehend.

Trust me when I was writing those letters this kind of rule isn't what I envisioned.

I agree with everything you said. Also, what purpose does striking this dog serve? The points can't be minused because the dog is shut out and the dog has to be handled because he came in to a closed tree. The dog is neither taking points from someone or earning points for himself, seems like a waste of time to even bother to me. This only appears to be a way for a slick handler or judge to get someone minused or scratched for nothing. Just what we need, isn't it.

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Posted by John D on 02-14-2013 07:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
I agree with everything you said. Also, what purpose does striking this dog serve? The points can't be minused because the dog is shut out and the dog has to be handled because he came in to a closed tree. The dog is neither taking points from someone or earning points for himself, seems like a waste of time to even bother to me. This only appears to be a way for a slick handler or judge to get someone minused or scratched for nothing. Just what we need, isn't it.

The dog could leave that tree before he is handled in which case his strike could end up being plussed, minused, or circled.

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Posted by J Bentz on 02-14-2013 07:48 PM:

All of this for a $5.00 TROPHY !!!!!!

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-14-2013 07:52 PM:

This all started over a ? about how a judge should correctly react to a situationwhere a dog hadnt been struck and was barking treed, and Allen gave us an answer that will under different circumstances create a situation where a judge will have to apply minus points and possibly scratch a dog when the handler has not had an opportunity to react.
EX. Cast is shining a tree, hunters are spread out, dog that hasnt been struck comes in and grabs the tree, chances are that dog will be scratched before the handler can even find the judge let alone get him on the card over three other barking dogs.

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Posted by SoShadow on 02-14-2013 07:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John D
The dog could leave that tree before he is handled in which case his strike could end up being plussed, minused, or circled.

which brings us back to truly's question, when is a dog cosidered handled?

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Posted by John D on 02-14-2013 07:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by J Bentz
All of this for a $5.00 TROPHY !!!!!!

They give $5.00 trophies out? I've been getting jipped.

quote:
Originally posted by SoShadow
which brings us back to truly's question, when is a dog cosidered handled?

Truly was wrong. A dog is handled when its leashed.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 02-14-2013 08:04 PM:

I'll need to go back to see what has been published when it comes to scratching for second offense. Meaning in a situation where strike points were awarded and minused on a dog that is barking. It seems we said to give the handler the opportunity to call the dog regardless of any number of barks it already made? But I'll need to research a bit.

Posted by K. Singletary on 02-14-2013 08:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John D
They give $5.00 trophies out? I've been getting jipped.

Truly was wrong. A dog is handled when its leashed.

So if you tell a man to leash his dog and he can't catch him, you just continue on hunting.

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Posted by wibeagle8813 on 02-14-2013 08:12 PM:

come on guys

Is it that hard to figure out if your dog is off the leash and the minute is up you MUST strike your dog on or before the 3rd bark? Failure to do so results in awarding next available position and minus them plus a warning. And if it happens twice your going home.

And gray areas-Ukc uses black ink on white paper. UKC is a big company that probably has a big printer. And with a big printer comes a big ink cartridge. Probably enough to print off every advisor and ukc rule book made and still not run out of ink. Every rule book and advisor i seen didnt look like they ran low on ink, it had bright black letters. If you still dont understand the rules get the rule book for $5 and the advisor for $15 and that will help you understand your "gray" areas in a $20 hunt

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Posted by K. Singletary on 02-14-2013 08:20 PM:

Re: come on guys

quote:
Originally posted by wibeagle8813
Is it that hard to figure out if your dog is off the leash and the minute is up you MUST strike your dog on or before the 3rd bark? Failure to do so results in awarding next available position and minus them plus a warning. And if it happens twice your going home.

And gray areas-Ukc uses black ink on white paper. UKC is a big company that probably has a big printer. And with a big printer comes a big ink cartridge. Probably enough to print off every advisor and ukc rule book made and still not run out of ink. Every rule book and advisor i seen didnt look like they ran low on ink, it had bright black letters. If you still dont understand the rules get the rule book for $5 and the advisor for $15 and that will help you understand your "gray" areas in a $20 hunt

It is simple but it is not practical. When shining a tree cast members maybe spread out 50, 60, 70 or more yards apart, with 3 dogs leashed barking. It is hard to communicate in this situation. In other scoring cases, the cast is to remain together and are normally standing side by side.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 02-14-2013 08:28 PM:

Makes no difference to me. Im striking and treeing mine when I hear it. If I've not already pitched it in there.

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Posted by LRK on 02-14-2013 10:05 PM:

the rest of a sad story

After you tell the handler is minused 25 and you need a call............he looks at you like your something out of a side show at the county fair...and says " 25 minus??? what for?? " you explain that for not striking his dog on or before the third bark he was minused 25 and will be scratched on the second offence. He then gets to looking like he should be in the side show........and then says " well just strike and tree my dog " You then have to explain he is struck for 25 with a line under it and that if he trees on a dead tree he will be minused 125 if handled on that tree, all while the other handle want to handle their dog at the tree.

This is a good place to learn......NOT when the time is running.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 02-14-2013 10:21 PM:

You should know the basics before going to a hunt AND striking your dog on or before the 3rd bark after the min is pretty much as basic as it gets.

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Posted by Ransom on 02-14-2013 10:41 PM:

Exactly my thoughts Ghorley... If my dogs not there when the judge tell the other the tree is a scored I'm gonna be like the rest of the cheating low life no good scum bags... Strike my dog while the others are still barking and when they pull them off you have 8 minutes to hear the dog and they are leash locked until then... When he/she barks that is a 100... lol

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Posted by FGS on 02-14-2013 10:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ransom
Exactly my thoughts Ghorley... If my dogs not there when the judge tell the other the tree is a scored I'm gonna be like the rest of the cheating low life no good scum bags... Strike my dog while the others are still barking and when they pull them off you have 8 minutes to hear the dog and they are leash locked until then... When he/she barks that is a 100... lol

Boy I guess I need to brush up on my rules because I thought you would go in for 25. Am I right?

Posted by truly on 02-14-2013 11:12 PM:

Re: Re: come on guys

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
It is simple but it is not practical. When shining a tree cast members maybe spread out 50, 60, 70 or more yards apart, with 3 dogs leashed barking. It is hard to communicate in this situation. In other scoring cases, the cast is to remain together and are normally standing side by side.

This was a thought of mine on the original question as well. A well run cast has everyone within easy talking distance as they walk in to a tree. But often folks are spread out over 15-20 yards, no matter how hard you try to keep a cast together someone is lagging behind trying to hear their dog that is split, or get there quickly in case of fighting at the tree.

But once you start shining a tree, as you state, folks get pretty sprawled out. In the case of a huge tree on a fence row between 2 cornfields, a dog may come in and start barking and a cast member that has backed way off to shine, or the judge, may not hear what others hear. If the handler of dog d is under the tree and his dog comes in, even if he yells the judge might not clearly hear him. Should he handle his dog? If he finds the judge 50 yards back in the field and tells him his dog is struck, judge says "handle him then" and by the time he gets back through the corn to the tree the dog may be gone.

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Posted by truly on 02-14-2013 11:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by FGS
Boy I guess I need to brush up on my rules because I thought you would go in for 25. Am I right?

yes you are right. as long as dogs are on leash they are still holding their strike points. No dog can strike in for 100 while three dogs are on leash.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 02-14-2013 11:31 PM:

I've hunted and spectated on lots of hunts. I can't ever remember this happening. Seen lots of stuff. Maybe I've saw it and don't remember it.

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Posted by truly on 02-14-2013 11:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
I've hunted and spectated on lots of hunts. I can't ever remember this happening. Seen lots of stuff. Maybe I've saw it and don't remember it.

I have never seen exactly what Allen asked about either, but sooner or later anything and everything will happen.

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Posted by StrawberryMt on 02-15-2013 02:17 AM:

Oh I can't wait to start enforcing this under a tree. I might take over the reputation of being the biggest slick handler in this area. I can't even remember the last question I had on a cast but feel pretty confident that's about to change. Lmao

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Posted by Ransom on 02-15-2013 04:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by truly
yes you are right. as long as dogs are on leash they are still holding their strike points. No dog can strike in for 100 while three dogs are on leash.

I believe you are WRONG... Because once a tree is scored all strike points become open if no dog is holding a strike point...

Posted by jculler8 on 02-15-2013 09:08 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ransom
I believe you are WRONG... Because once a tree is scored all strike points become open if no dog is holding a strike point...

Have to recast first before a new set of strike can be opened.

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