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-- Conditioning hounds for the bench (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928300267)

How long have you been giving it to your dogs? It is know to cause major kideny damage in humans. I would be scared to death giving it to dogs. It messed me up pretty bad when I was taking it. Bad kidney pains and major nose bleeds. The new stuff didn't give me nose bleeds but still made my kidneys hurt. What do you give it to the dogs for?

Creatine is only an ingredient in the overall supplement. I only use it when I am pushing one beyond the limits of the feed I use or after an injury. I don't use it as a daily offering. I have used this supplement since 1997'ish and only for a two month period tops. German micronized. The feed I use will cover their dietary needs mostly so the supplement is used theoretically to kind of "round it out".

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I found a product this winter that I will start using this spring that will help keep the dogs hydrated and aid in recovery. I hunt 5 or 6 nights a week. Its always a fine line between having a dog in tip top shape and them being wore out. I hope this supplement helps with the fitigue. If it does it could be a game changer for my kennel. I use several training methods. I do road my dogs even though I am hunting them every nite. The raoding is simply for conditioning. I like to do it in the heat of the day, to help them when they have to tree for long periods of time. I have always said If I get beat I don't want it to be because of the the heat or my dog being out of shape. Its going to be because you found your coon and I didn't find mine.

If you work for a living , you gotta find something consistant that you can do .... the occasional swim or jog or hunt isn't gonna change much.


The easiest thing to do is diet and switching the dog every couple days from a cable run to a pen ... or a tie-out and so forth .. let the dog work themself by keeping their environment new and exciting.

Like Snowgreen says , animals don't get their strength or look from excersize like us ... a Grizzly can wake up from hibernation and still be unreal strong , they can loaf around all summer eating berries and still are pound for pound stronger than us.

You can look at pics of alot of big winners that are hunted hard and alot still look either pot bellied or just rough and plain ... if they aint got the genetics , they just aint got it ... why should it e any different than the culling it takes to find the right cooner ?

All dogs of the same breed are born with the same amount of muscles, over 5oo (it verys from breed to breed). So my coonhound and your coonhound are genticly the same as to how many muscles they have( unless they have the "bully" gene which has doubled up on the Myosatin gene which is rare). So every dog can have bulk and tone with the right exercise and diet.

That's like saying since we all have the same amount of brain cells , we are all the same IQ if we try , lol.

Sure the muscle groups are there , nobody is saying some dogs are missing actual muscles ... you kinda invented something you could counter ... not impressive .

But the muscle quality isn't the same ... just like a beagle has the same muscles of a pitbull , but not the same quality.

Hunted 4 days a week, No ribs showing, no back bone showing, barely see the hip bones

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Originally posted by Dirtdevil
That's like saying since we all have the same amount of brain cells , we are all the same IQ if we try , lol.

Sure the muscle groups are there , nobody is saying some dogs are missing actual muscles ... you kinda invented something you could counter ... not impressive .

But the muscle quality isn't the same ... just like a beagle has the same muscles of a pitbull , but not the same quality.

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Originally posted by blackflagginit
exactly.

but there are some who will never learn......then wonder why the bone pile they slap on a bench doesnt win.


its also like saying every dog out there is a world ch, just aint won the hunt yet lmao.

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Understanding how your dogs body responds to the fuel you provide it, the work you give it, and the rest it needs is the backbone of any conditioning efforts. Along those same lines, knowing what your are conditioning your dog for and how best to proceed with it are just as important. Conditioning a dog for a bench show or just overall better quality of life is vastly different than conditioning a dog for work or hunting for an extended period. Any dog will continue to put one foot in front of the other for a night of hunting if thats what the dog loves to do and is in its heart. The key is watching how hard they do it, how much recovery time they need and how many times they can repeat that scenario as intensely as possible. As an owner, you have minimal control over many things, you have total control of the conditioning of your dog when compared to others. Don't let conditioning be the reason you fail. If you have it in your mind that you can provide your charge pizz poor feed and that it has always worked, good luck to you. Then don't complain when you end up with the same old results with your "hard hunting" self. If you recognize that things run better with good fuel and tuned right, conditioning a working dog is a lot of fun. The results you see with your own eyes and nobody can "cheat" you out of it except yourself. The results are completely dependant upon you, your knowledge, and your application of it. Application is where many fail and is the proverbial line that separates the men from the boys sorta speak. With all of the talk of cheap feed being used and being just fine, I would say that the guy looking for a competitive edge could exploit that area to his benefit.

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Dirtdevil Thats apples to oranges!
Blackflagginit The muscle structure of a dog is the same, The hunt DNA is not, like color and eyes, Totally differnt DNA.

csnowgren I totally agree 100%. What dogfood tdo you feed? I love kent its made for working dogs ( birddogs). I have tried several and had the best results with Kent. I like the ingredients and it is very well priced for a quility food. I don't feed everydog the same bag. Like you said everydog is different. Some don't need as much fat or protien to keep a healty weight. I always lower the protien in the summer as well.

Had to reply to this thread because not only do I bench show but I raise racing greyhounds. Arguably the biggest athlete in the canine world and the second fastest animal on the planet next to the cheetah. I raise my coonhounds and deerhounds just like I do my greyhounds. Lots of free exercise, sprinting in a 5 acre field and in the case of my deerhounds they do several miles behind a Gator. The secret to lean, hard, muscle mass is feed. Meat is the key. I have yet to go to a single AKC or UKC show and not have the judge comment on my dogs muscle. It's feed! Granted they can't be couch potatoes and look like a top athlete. Years ago every racing kennel tried every supplement known to man and we probably imagined we saw a difference. A good de-worming program and feeding beef/tripe/offal etc can make the difference between winning and losing. Even my lurcher gets meat and I take him out as a ratter. He is the picture of slick coat, lean muscle and power. I guarantee you a hunter or fancier feeding a good raw diet will always out perform its equal. Grain fed dogs have nice sleek coats but there is no substance in compared to a meat fed dog. JMHO. Proud feeder of Blue Ridge Beef for 20 years.

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Originally posted by River Birch Run
Dirtdevil Thats apples to oranges!
Blackflagginit The muscle structure of a dog is the same, The hunt DNA is not, like color and eyes, Totally differnt DNA.

csnowgren I totally agree 100%. What dogfood tdo you feed? I love kent its made for working dogs ( birddogs). I have tried several and had the best results with Kent. I like the ingredients and it is very well priced for a quility food. I don't feed everydog the same bag. Like you said everydog is different. Some don't need as much fat or protien to keep a healty weight. I always lower the protien in the summer as well.

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“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatsoever that it is not utterly absurd.”

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Originally posted by River Birch Run

Blackflagginit The muscle structure of a dog is the same, The hunt DNA is not, like color and eyes, Totally differnt DNA.

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Blackflaggingit You really need to do some research on DNA so you can understand how genes work. I learned it in middle school. Then got in depth in college in my sports med classes. It really helpped me as a college athlete get the most out of my body.

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Originally posted by River Birch Run
Blackflaggingit You really need to do some research on DNA so you can understand how genes work. I learned it in middle school. Then got in depth in college in my sports med classes. It really helpped me as a college athlete get the most out of my body.

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Science is changing every day , we used to think the world was flat ... the atom was the smallest molecule ..... and so forth.

Science likes to think they are smarter than they are ... they teach you how they think genes work , but if they really knew then we'd be alot further along on curing diseases of that nature .. and could prevent babies from ever having birth defects.

Even Forrest Gump knew that smart is as smart does .. and when it comes to genes ... we aint smart yet .

Witness pitbulls in their environment and what they can do ... and you will find out that pound--per-pound there is a huge difference in muscles even if you didn't learn it fifteen years ago in middle school ... only the ignorant make any other comparison.

The first sign someone is b.s.'ing .. is they get away from first person experience and what they have done ... and start throwing out stuff they have read , what's in books or what someone else told them.

YOu can never be wrong by just sticking to what you have experienced .... it's making the jump into claiming what you think or have heard that will make for a rough landing.

if i was gonna get one ready to show id feed it raw meat and eggs with a all natural high protien low fat dog food. id hunt it for atleast two hours feed it in the morning and after i got done hunting it and after i fed it in the morning id work it on a tredmil.. but i aint never seen eny dogs with chunks taken out of there ears and maybe tip of their tail broken being shown they are all pretty dogs! haha

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Originally posted by slobbermouth21
if i was gonna get one ready to show id feed it raw meat and eggs with a all natural high protien low fat dog food. id hunt it for atleast two hours feed it in the morning and after i got done hunting it and after i fed it in the morning id work it on a tredmil.. but i aint never seen eny dogs with chunks taken out of there ears and maybe tip of their tail broken being shown they are all pretty dogs! haha

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Naw I've put dogs and chickens on plenty of keeps just I don't give a **** about showen one on the bench!

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I won't ever ask a dog to work after I fed it, when I work one, it will not be on a low fat diet, and resting the dog is as vital as working one. Only during rest will the work pay off. Dogs are pretty tough and can handle much more than most folks give them credit for. I don't like a lot of extra muscle or fat on a dog. The extra muscle retains more water and once it heats up, it takes longer to cool down. I don't believe that extra muscle (bulk) helps a coondog and I also don't believe that hunting a dog 5-7 nights a week like some of these badazzes claim to is a good thing. Without rest, you are repeatedly just breaking them down. And throwing a scoop of black gold or high standard or some other junk feed doesn't give back what they put out, let alone what they need when working hard.

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“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatsoever that it is not utterly absurd.”

Csnowgren I agree, I hunt 5 to 6 nites a week, but have several dogs and usally don't hunt one dog more than 4 nites. Every dog is differnt though. Had one I could only hunt 3 nites during the week for him to look good for a hunt on the weekend. His son on the other hand looks best when hunted down 4 nites one nite off before the hunt.

And that is what it boils down to, being able to read each dog as an individual. When folks say every dog is different, they are right, but not generally for the reasons or point they are trying to make. They usually are trying to justify some bullshyt feed by claiming it works for them. The reality is that it may work for the work they ask from their dog......and there is a ton of room for improvement if your dog is getting by on joy and ole roy. There is an incredible amount of foundation that can be applied to every dog. It is when you get beyond that foundation that ones skills as a conditioner prove their value, or lack of it. I generally use a 3 day cycle that just repeats itself. If they take to the feed program I will adjust for more work but always include a solid day of rest in the 3 day cycle.

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