UKC Forums - question about Chritianity

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Posted by CHRIS PACE on 02-11-2013 12:35 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: question about Chritianity

quote:
Originally posted by Rip

Matter of fact many states had official religions for a very long time.

[/B]

This is why there is a separation of church and state.
Religious beliefs should not be a factor in making state or national laws.

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Posted by longshot on 02-11-2013 01:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
I AGREE BUT JUST FOR DISCUSION SAKE WHAT IF A SAVED PERSON ADS TO OR TAKES AWAY FROM THE BOOK OF REV. LAST CH.

You ask a good and valid question. My answer would be that a true Born again Christian would never willingly Tamper with the Word of God. Those that would Tamper with it are not of the faith in the 1st place.. " By their Fruits you will know them"

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Posted by Rip on 02-11-2013 02:05 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: question about Chritianity

quote:
Originally posted by CHRIS PACE
This is why there is a separation of church and state.
Religious beliefs should not be a factor in making state or national laws.

Again there is NO separation of Church and State.

There is separation of STATE FROM CHURCH.

It is only one way, not the other. It's literal interpretation is what our founding fathers intended, they intended it to only go one way, prohibit the Federal gubment from infringing on the Church, but they freely allowed Church into the Gubment, that's why we have prayer before congress etc.

No the Constitution, means what it says and says what it means. It is only recently that it has been bastardized and extended both ways. It was never intended to be that way, it was only a restriction on the Feds, nobody else.

Even Thomas Jefferson, the biggest athiest around, would not side with the Baptists in his famous letter quoting "separation of church and state". The state had laws requiring church taxes etc. He basically said he couldn't overturn this at the FEDERAL level because the FEDS aren't allowed to due to separation of church and state. This is where the saying comes from as it is not in The Constitution of The United States. If you read the letter though he was allowing the state sponsored religous rules etc and cited the Feds were powerless to stop it because he rightfully knew the separation only went one direction, and it was only talking about the feds.

Modern people have bastardized this and claim it goes both ways. It does not. Technically states could have a state religion if they wanted to and not violate the original intent of the Constitution of the United States (in fact they did most famously Mass.).

The Bill of Rights was solely intended to limit the FEDERAL gubments power not the individual states and religion was freely allowed into both the Fed and State levels because they KNEW it only went one way, restricting federal power.

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Posted by CHRIS PACE on 02-11-2013 02:28 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: question about Chritianity

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Again there is NO separation of Church and State.

There is separation of STATE FROM CHURCH.

It is only one way, not the other. It's literal interpretation is what our founding fathers intended, they intended it to only go one way, prohibit the Federal gubment from infringing on the Church, but they freely allowed Church into the Gubment, that's why we have prayer before congress etc.

No the Constitution, means what it says and says what it means. It is only recently that it has been bastardized and extended both ways. It was never intended to be that way, it was only a restriction on the Feds, nobody else.

I am saying religious beliefs should hold no weight in the making of laws.
Bigamy,serpents,animal sacrifice

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Posted by Rip on 02-11-2013 02:52 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: question about Chritianity

quote:
Originally posted by CHRIS PACE
I am saying religious beliefs should hold no weight in the making of laws.
Bigamy,serpents,animal sacrifice

Ok. I see what you are saying.......but then we wouldn't have murder, rape, theft, and other laws that are based on the teachings of the Bible. There would be some good things to that, such as much less gubment intrusion into our lives, but the weak and uneducated would be at the mercy of everyone else as well so that would be bad.

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Posted by oklared on 02-11-2013 03:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
You ask a good and valid question. My answer would be that a true Born again Christian would never willingly Tamper with the Word of God. Those that would Tamper with it are not of the faith in the 1st place.. " By their Fruits you will know them"

BUT A NONE CHRISTIAN WOULD NOT HAVE HIS NAME IN THERE AND HAVE NO PART OF ALL THOSE THINGS SO IT ABOUT HAS TO BE TALKING ABOUT A SAVED PERSON AND WHY WOULD HE PUT SUCH A WARNING IN THERE IF THERE WAS NO POSSIBILITY OF IT.

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Posted by longshot on 02-11-2013 04:05 AM:

I think your simply reading too much into it in saying that 22:19 may be refering to believers ( which I believe it is not)..

One can look at another verse in Rev 3:5 where he says he will NEVER blot out a belivers name... So the bottom line is , it can't be both ways.. He would not say he is blotting them out on Rev 22:19 , then turn around and say in Rev 3:5 that he NEVER blotts them out..

The promise of Revelation 3:5 is directed to believers, who are secure in their salvation. In contrast, the warning of Revelation 22:19 is directed to unbelievers, who, rather than change their hearts toward God, attempt to change God’s Word to suit themselves.

Thats my understanding of it.

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Posted by southern hunter on 02-11-2013 01:10 PM:

Rev 3:5 is saying he that over cometh will not b blotted out so that tells me that we have to strife for the mark of perfection we havent obtained it yet so ppl who thinks they have guranteed salvation just because they made a profession is wrong to me .... bible says he that endures unto the end shall b saved we havent obtained salvation yet, neither have we over come yet because we havent finished our course , we are rejoicing and living in the salvation of the lord ,because he has overcome. So to sum it up our name can b blotted out,if we dont overcome

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Posted by Harley Smith on 02-11-2013 04:33 PM:

I believe if you think you can loose your salvation you are trusting I in your self righteousness or your works to save you. If you are trusting in the perfect sacrifice and know that the lamb is being examined and not the person. You have received salvation and because you abide in Christ and his finished work you will produce the fruit of the spirit , because you abide in the vine. Apart from that self righteous people can not produce that fruit. If you think you can loose your salvation, this is what your walk with God is like, at first you are on fire for God , you cannot wait to tell people what God has done for you, you feel better than you have ever felt in your life, a load has been lifted off of you, you are full of the fruit of the spirit. Now you have set your mind on pleasing God and doing what ever he requires of you, you will attend every church service , you pray constantly, you read your bible, and all of these things are done effortlessly , then sooner or later you temptation will come along and you will give in, you will look at something that you shouldn't or say somthing that you shouldn't and you will feel like you let God down. So you will be battling in your heart because you feel that you sinned against God. Now all you think you have to do is ask forgiveness and all will be restored, that may work the first few times but eventually the load will get heavy again and before long you will get to the point where there is no joy, no, peace, and defiantly no love. Now your having to make yourself study the bible, you regret going to church, and you are afraid that if you don't do all these things that someday you will give up and you will have wasted your whole life trying to be what God wants you to be and because of your failure now you are going to spend eternity in hell. Just like Moses when we are justified by keeping the comandments the Glory will fade, but if you will be honest to God and yourself, you can't be what God requires, that's what Jesus was for. I am not passing judgment on anyone, I lived the above and when I finally admitted to my self and God I'm going to spend eternity in hell if its left up to me to make it and immediately the fruit returned. All the things that We think God requires now comes effortlessly .

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Posted by beardenrents on 02-11-2013 04:38 PM:

there is

more than one book mentioned in Revelation. The book of life 3:5(physical birth). The Lamb's Book of Life 21:27 (salvation). Salvation is a free gift from God that can't be lost. The book of life will be judged by works Rev 20:12-15. (white throne judement) Then they were thrown in the lake of fire(hell) you can't work your way into Heaven. You must profess Jesus as your savior. He is the only way to Heaven.(John 3 14-16). this is he way I read it. I am open for discussion if someone can show me something that I am missing.

Posted by casey brown on 02-11-2013 05:50 PM:

Re: there is

quote:
Originally posted by beardenrents
more than one book mentioned in Revelation. The book of life 3:5(physical birth). The Lamb's Book of Life 21:27 (salvation). Salvation is a free gift from God that can't be lost. The book of life will be judged by works Rev 20:12-15. (white throne judement) Then they were thrown in the lake of fire(hell) you can't work your way into Heaven. You must profess Jesus as your savior. He is the only way to Heaven.(John 3 14-16). this is he way I read it. I am open for discussion if someone can show me something that I am missing.

"you can't work your way into Heaven. You must profess Jesus as your savior"

Thats works. The physical act of professing Jesus as your Saviour is works. If absolutely no works are involved in salvation than the initial sinners prayer and confession is never needed.

Posted by Harley Smith on 02-11-2013 06:12 PM:

The truth is jesus saved us all but untill you put your faith in that you never benifit from it

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Posted by longshot on 02-11-2013 06:22 PM:

I've pretty much beat the subject to death on this and the other thread. Bottom line for me is, I do NOT believe a truely born again person will become UN-born again. PERIOD.

I've look into the subject a good deal and said my piece and that's that.

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Posted by southern hunter on 02-11-2013 10:37 PM:

James 2:18 yea a man say,thou hast faith, and i have works show me thy faith without thy works and i will shew thee my faith by my works

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Posted by beardenrents on 02-12-2013 05:39 AM:

What works

Did the thief that asked Jesus to remember him do?

Posted by southern hunter on 02-12-2013 01:26 PM:

First thing u have to remember is that the thieve died under the law,because christ hadnt died at that point,neither had he ascended therefore the new testament wasnt valid at that time. Meaning as i said he died under the law.

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Posted by beardenrents on 02-12-2013 02:57 PM:

The thief

I believe Jesus died before the Thief. Which means he died under grace. John 19:31-37.

Posted by southern hunter on 02-12-2013 03:51 PM:

You study it and you will find that he was under the law, how many days was christ in the tomb 3 days before he was resurrected , then was seen of the disciples and many others for a week and then he ascended unto the father and sent unto man the holy ghost on the day of pentecost which was a promise of the father .......... im not trying to argue i simply giving bible and the bible says faith without works is dead

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Posted by Harley Smith on 02-12-2013 04:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by southern hunter
You study it and you will find that he was under the law, how many days was christ in the tomb 3 days before he was resurrected , then was seen of the disciples and many others for a week and then he ascended unto the father and sent unto man the holy ghost on the day of pentecost which was a promise of the father .......... im not trying to argue i simply giving bible and the bible says faith without works is dead

the New Testament went into effect when Jesus died.

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Posted by southern hunter on 02-12-2013 04:31 PM:

Jesus had to be resurrected first......without the resurrection of christ our faith would be vain his dying on the cross was the end of his course on this earth but had he of not arose there wouldnt b a new testament read 1 corinthians chapter 15

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Posted by Harley Smith on 02-12-2013 04:58 PM:

I agree that if Jesus was not raised from the dead then there is no hope for us. But the fact is that the word testement and covenant mean the same thing and as soon as the testator dies the will or covenant goes into effect. I agree about faith without works is dead, but the truth is if you are not putting your faith in Jesus and his finished work on the cross, then your works are dead. Faith in the finished work of Jesus will produce the fruit of the spirit and if you have those fruit they produce the works you are referring to. If you don't abide in the vine you will not produce fruit.

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Posted by southern hunter on 02-12-2013 08:37 PM:

my faith is in christ and i get what you are saying,the fact of the matter is that not only was the cross important,but many things that goes beyond the cross,the resurrection,the fact that he took the keys to death,hell,and the grave,the comforter that he sent (holy ghost),and the fact that he ascended and is sitting at the right hand of the father making intercessions for you and I and without these things you and i wouldnt have a chance,thanks and praise be unto god that he supplied our needs by and through his son

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Posted by Harley Smith on 02-12-2013 09:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by southern hunter
my faith is in christ and i get what you are saying,the fact of the matter is that not only was the cross important,but many things that goes beyond the cross,the resurrection,the fact that he took the keys to death,hell,and the grave,the comforter that he sent (holy ghost),and the fact that he ascended and is sitting at the right hand of the father making intercessions for you and I and without these things you and i wouldnt have a chance,thanks and praise be unto god that he supplied our needs by and through his son

I agree. We benifit from all that he did not only at the cross and after but before also. He fulfilled all righteousness, so what I'm saying is if our faith is in him, his spirit in us will produce the works you speak of. So to prove that my faith is in him you should see fruit in my life. And if you are saved I should see fruit in your life not. Love , joy , peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control . All of these are what God desires for his children to be, because there is a hungry world. And until the church understands we can't produce these things apart from him, we have nothing to offer the hungry but more condemnation, and death.

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Posted by vernonsdream on 02-12-2013 09:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
I've pretty much beat the subject to death on this and the other thread. Bottom line for me is, I do NOT believe a truely born again person will become UN-born again. PERIOD.

I've look into the subject a good deal and said my piece and that's that.

You ever read any Zane Hodges, Mark? I've got some great ones to reccomend if not

Posted by vernonsdream on 02-12-2013 09:23 PM:

Re: Re: there is

quote:
Originally posted by casey brown
"you can't work your way into Heaven. You must profess Jesus as your savior"

Thats works. The physical act of professing Jesus as your Saviour is works. If absolutely no works are involved in salvation than the initial sinners prayer and confession is never needed.

Can you show me where in the bible is says you must do the sinners prayer to be saved? Or that a confession is needed? The only confession needed is to confess that Jesus is Lord (Romans 10:9).

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