UKC Forums - Eternal Security- can you lose your salvation?

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Posted by garminguru on 12-13-2012 07:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by vernonsdream
Answer my questions above and when I get out of work I will explain my take on James

I have never had anyone explain away what Simon Peter said in his 2nd epistle when I brought their attention to that scripture. Their is no other amount of scripture you can throw in there to obscure the meaning, there is no feel good gut emotions you can have that will change what Simon Peter was telling us. The fact of the matter is, eternal salvation is a dangerous doctrine and why anyone would want to stake eternity on it or try to convince others that it exists is living on the edge.

Posted by skeets on 12-13-2012 08:31 PM:

mr.trackdriver if you get some time read some of these- jude 24, ephesians chapter 1 verse 13 also read the 11th verse. 1st john chapter 3 verse 9. theres more but i got to go work on my truck lol. have a great day.

Posted by Jason Baldwin on 12-13-2012 09:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by garminguru
I have never had anyone explain away what Simon Peter said in his 2nd epistle when I brought their attention to that scripture. Their is no other amount of scripture you can throw in there to obscure the meaning, there is no feel good gut emotions you can have that will change what Simon Peter was telling us. The fact of the matter is, eternal salvation is a dangerous doctrine and why anyone would want to stake eternity on it or try to convince others that it exists is living on the edge.

Who is your savior ? Where are you going when you die ?

Posted by Jason Baldwin on 12-13-2012 09:23 PM:

Im not trying to be uncivil and i certainly hope noone takes it that way. I care and im just trying to find out exactly what yall mean and what you believe.

Posted by garminguru on 12-13-2012 09:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Baldwin
Who is your savior ? Where are you going when you die ?

I will not justify this with an answer!

Posted by T.Beyer on 12-13-2012 10:12 PM:

Context

While I am not going to belabor my opinion, I will share this. More confusion is caused when interpreting scripture than anything else because of two things. First, you always use scripture to interpret scripture, not human understanding. Second. You must take scripture in full context, not a single verse and then try to dissect it. I mean think of it, if we scrutinized John 11:35, just on the face of the scripture, we can come to many conclusions as to why he wept, but upon further deeper inspection of the scripture, and reading it in context, we see that Jesus wept because of the loss of a friend.

My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, "You sit here in a good place," and say to the poor man, "You stand there," or, "Sit here at my footstool," have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called? If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
(Jas 2:1-26 NKJV)

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Posted by longshot on 12-13-2012 10:15 PM:

If a person is truely Saved , you cannot loose your salvation.....

When you're born into the Kingdom of God , The Bible calls us Children of God. You do not stop being a child of God if you sin. God may punish you is some way but not by taking away Salvation.... When my kid breaks a dish , they are STILL my kid. You cannot be UNBORN. Nothing can change the fact that my kids are my kids...

John 10:28- I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Read the pasage above and define "Eternal"..... Words mean things and eternal means "forever" ... It doesn't mean for a while , or unless they end up sinning again , etc , etc.

Another question is.... Is God an Indian giver ? Does he give eternal life , then Yank it back again ? Of course not.. Jesus died for my past , present and future sins.... ALL of them , period , end of story. To say you can loose your salvation is saying that Jesus ONLY died for my past sins , and if I sin in the future, I am again condemned. That doesn't make any sense at all..

and finally , for those of you that believe you can loose your salvation , I have a question.... Exactly when do you loose it ?... Is it lost as you're walking out of church and have a bad thought in your head , or do you have to go out and steal something , or commit adultery or something such as that ? Does ANY sin cause you to lose it , or do you " have to sin real bad " ?

I mean come on , most of us can't go 30 minutes without some kind of sin entering out heads , so you better not stray outside the church doors if you can lose it...

No , the truth is , God saved a very sinfull and fallen mankind by the perfect blood of Jesus Chirst and he died one time for ALL sins if the person is willing to accept that free gift of salvation.

That's my rant for the day. ..... No disrespect toward anyone.

Good discussion here...

__________________
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Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by Adam Whitehead on 12-13-2012 10:21 PM:

Very well put Mr. Reavis..... I will only add to your comment by saying this....

Ephesians teaches us that we are sealed until the day of redemption....Thank God He is doing the sealing....He has never lost one and never will!!!

Christ died ONCE for ALL, ANYONE who will believe and accept him after hearing the PREACHED word God shall be saved for ALL ETERNITY!!!

That is not only my belief and my thoughts that is the Word of God.

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Posted by longshot on 12-13-2012 10:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Adam Whitehead
Very well put Mr. Reavis..... I will only add to your comment by saying this....

Ephesians teaches us that we are sealed until the day of redemption....Thank God He is doing the sealing....He has never lost one and never will!!!
.

Excellant point about the "Sealed" verse... I can even expand on that also by saying that the Bible says in Revelation that anyone who takes the Mark of the Beast is SEALED to be condemned... There is No turning back if you take that Seal. Satan Seals them to be condemned forever.

In the EXACT same way , the Holy Spirit SEALS us for eternal Salvation and there is NO turning back from it either. Christ Seals us for Salvation forever.

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by garminguru on 12-13-2012 10:38 PM:

So someone tell me what or who Simon Peter was talking about in his 2nd Epistle?

As far as the scripture about no man being able to pluck you out of God's hand, it does not say that you can't separate yourself!

Posted by garminguru on 12-13-2012 10:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
If a person is truely Saved , you cannot loose your salvation.....

When you're born into the Kingdom of God , The Bible calls us Children of God. You do not stop being a child of God if you sin. God may punish you is some way but not by taking away Salvation.... When my kid breaks a dish , they are STILL my kid. You cannot be UNBORN. Nothing can change the fact that my kids are my kids...

John 10:28- I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Read the pasage above and define "Eternal"..... Words mean things and eternal means "forever" ... It doesn't mean for a while , or unless they end up sinning again , etc , etc.

Another question is.... Is God an Indian giver ? Does he give eternal life , then Yank it back again ? Of course not.. Jesus died for my past , present and future sins.... ALL of them , period , end of story. To say you can loose your salvation is saying that Jesus ONLY died for my past sins , and if I sin in the future, I am again condemned. That doesn't make any sense at all..

and finally , for those of you that believe you can loose your salvation , I have a question.... Exactly when do you loose it ?... Is it lost as you're walking out of church and have a bad thought in your head , or do you have to go out and steal something , or commit adultery or something such as that ? Does ANY sin cause you to lose it , or do you " have to sin real bad " ?

I mean come on , most of us can't go 30 minutes without some kind of sin entering out heads , so you better not stray outside the church doors if you can lose it...

No , the truth is , God saved a very sinfull and fallen mankind by the perfect blood of Jesus Chirst and he died one time for ALL sins if the person is willing to accept that free gift of salvation.

That's my rant for the day. ..... No disrespect toward anyone.

Good discussion here...

I have heard this position before and here is the way I see it. If you are married to your spouse and end up divorced, you do not just one day wake up and find you are divorced! There is generally a process of the way you two live your lives that one day finds you divorced.
Explain 2nd Peter to me please if you understand it differently.

Posted by pastor on 12-13-2012 10:51 PM:

why does people ask for forgivess to begin with. answer because of sin so if ask for forgivenes to begin with in order to have eternal life with christ, what makes you think that if you sin after your saved your alright, sin seperates people from God, si if he requires you to ask for frogivenes in the beginning , he requires us to ask for after were saved.I don't think that just because you have asked the Lord to be your savior it gives us the right to live and do anything we want to. I know we all sin butwe have an advicate with the father but we still have to ask for forgiveness, I know alot of people has asked the Lord to be savior in their lives and as the years have gone back to their old lifestyles doing the same things beforethey were saved, no longer go to church ,so how are they any different from any other sinner

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Posted by vernonsdream on 12-13-2012 11:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by garminguru
I have heard this position before and here is the way I see it. If you are married to your spouse and end up divorced, you do not just one day wake up and find you are divorced! There is generally a process of the way you two live your lives that one day finds you divorced.
Explain 2nd Peter to me please if you understand it differently.

People can come to the knowledge that Christ is Lord without asking him into their heart. Peter was talking about people whom have back slid because they have come to know the truth, but they are worse off in the later state because they know Christ is Lord, but arent yet saved. Just how you can't reconcile eternal security I can't see anything in 2 Peter that is clearly talking about Christians losing their free gift of eternal life. Remember the whole chapter is Peter talking about false teachers and prophets, right? So they have the knowledge that Christ is Lord, but aren't necessarily Christian. I can't add that to 2 Peter, can you?

Posted by longshot on 12-13-2012 11:07 PM:

Nope , having eternal security doesn't give you a licence to sin freely. God will find a way to disipline you... Look at David and Bathsheba.... David paid a huge price for his sin , BUT he didn't loose his salvation..... Even David said to God " Please restore the JOY of my Salvation" ... David did NOT say Restore my Salvation... David's life was never the same after Bathsheba, but he never lost his Salvation.

As for 2 Peter Garmin guru , that is refering to someone that was never a Christain in the first place... It's getting dark 30 here and I'm going hunting , but I'll be happy to expand on this at another time... Vernon touches on this above.

Yours in Christ.

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by vernonsdream on 12-13-2012 11:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pastor
why does people ask for forgivess to begin with. answer because of sin so if ask for forgivenes to begin with in order to have eternal life with christ, what makes you think that if you sin after your saved your alright, sin seperates people from God, si if he requires you to ask for frogivenes in the beginning , he requires us to ask for after were saved.I don't think that just because you have asked the Lord to be your savior it gives us the right to live and do anything we want to. I know we all sin butwe have an advicate with the father but we still have to ask for forgiveness, I know alot of people has asked the Lord to be savior in their lives and as the years have gone back to their old lifestyles doing the same things beforethey were saved, no longer go to church ,so how are they any different from any other sinner

Huh? How are they different than any other sinner? Easy, just read your own signature and find out. They are different than any other sinner because they believe in Jesus Christ, they won't perish, and will receive everlasting life. Are you Catholic? Just curious

Posted by vernonsdream on 12-13-2012 11:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by garminguru
I have heard this position before and here is the way I see it. If you are married to your spouse and end up divorced, you do not just one day wake up and find you are divorced! There is generally a process of the way you two live your lives that one day finds you divorced.
Explain 2nd Peter to me please if you understand it differently.

So if you're married and divorced does that mean you were never married in the first place?

Posted by Adam Whitehead on 12-14-2012 12:53 AM:

Obviously some of our opinions are not going to change some folks beliefs, views, or whatever....so with that being said...read my signature and that is all you need to know....if you feel like you have to get saved 1 or 1 million times, it doesn't matter, BUT what does matter is that you do get saved.

I'll say this also.....sure there are people who God has saved and they have left God's way, I used to know someone very personally who did that very thing, BUT God is faithful and just to forgive our sin....you know only we as humans classify sin (big sin vs little sin) God does NOT classify sin....ANY sin is a separation from God therefore the very reason we seek God for forgiveness.

One more thing....as far as being saved and not doing, acting, living the way a Christion ought to......we all had/have want to's before we were born again....now after the second birth..guess what....our want to's change.

Read John 10...we are God's sheep and we know his voice and he knows US.....We all have a free will....that free will simply includes to obey God or not to obey God.....if we obey we live a life of blessing and GREAT reward...if we do not obey, we feel the chastening of God who LOVES us!

Prodical son comes to my mind right now....he was still his Father's son wasn't he? Of course he was still is.....I am thankful that God has a fatted calf and a ring and robe and shoes for our feet when we come to ourselves and realize it was us that left God and NOT God leaving us....Oh me what a homecoming......

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Posted by pastor on 12-14-2012 02:34 AM:

my point exactly you have to ask for forgivness when you sin

1 Corinthians 6: 9-10- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God Be not decieved neither fornicators,nor idolaters ,nor adulterers, nor efeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. 10. Nor theives,nor covetous,nor drunkards, nor revilers,nor extortioners,shall inherit the kingdom Of God. Iknow people who were saved that has turned their back on God and are doing these very same things. I beleive unless they ask for forgiveness the Bible says that they will not inherit the kingdom of God .Not my words, but the words of the Bible

I'm penticostal

Posted by hillbilly56 on 12-14-2012 02:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by pastor
my point exactly you have to ask for forgivness when you sin

1 Corinthians 6: 9-10- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God Be not decieved neither fornicators,nor idolaters ,nor adulterers, nor efeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. 10. Nor theives,nor covetous,nor drunkards, nor revilers,nor extortioners,shall inherit the kingdom Of God. Iknow people who were saved that has turned their back on God and are doing these very same things. I beleive unless they ask for forgiveness the Bible says that they will not inherit the kingdom of God .Not my words, but the words of the Bible

I'm penticostal

i think alot to do with understanding the bible is the differnt faiths has alittle differnt belive i was raised methodist so thats the faith which i belive in not saying the other faiths are wrong to belive in i think it was mr baldwin posted if you sin you die i dont belive that nobody can live on this earth for ever my mom is 90 yrs old and my dad is 87 and is a retired preacher i know when they pass it is just the good lord calling them home im not perfect but i hope to make it to the pearly gates of heaven jmo

Posted by Hey Preacher!!! on 12-14-2012 03:15 AM:

2 Timothy 1:12 ", for I know Whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day."

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Posted by longshot on 12-14-2012 04:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by pastor
my point exactly you have to ask for forgivness when you sin

1 Corinthians 6: 9-10- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God Be not decieved neither fornicators,nor idolaters ,nor adulterers, nor efeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. 10. Nor theives,nor covetous,nor drunkards, nor revilers,nor extortioners,shall inherit the kingdom Of God. Iknow people who were saved that has turned their back on God and are doing these very same things. I beleive unless they ask for forgiveness the Bible says that they will not inherit the kingdom of God .Not my words, but the words of the Bible

I'm penticostal

Again, that verse refers to the unsaved. There are only two kinds of people , saved sinners and lost sinners. The one thing that I am CERTAIN of is , we are ALL sinners.

__________________
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Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by pastor on 12-14-2012 05:13 AM:

your right but what are you called if you get saved and down the road you start doing these things again, the word Christian means to be Christ like. the Bible says old things are passed away and behold all things become knew, i know we all have sinned but as a Christian I'm going to do my very best not to do the things I done before I was saved, God loves the sinner but he does not and will not love the sin

Posted by skeets on 12-14-2012 05:28 AM:

romans 4:5-8

Posted by Jason Baldwin on 12-14-2012 10:47 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by garminguru
I will not justify this with an answer!

THe reason I ask is because earlier you said you don't believe in Eternal Salvation. So what exactly do you believe ? Its just a question. I didn't mean to make you angry or anything like that at all. There are lots of different things folks believe. I don't know you from anybody else.

Posted by Floyd leopards on 12-14-2012 01:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pastor
my point exactly you have to ask for forgivness when you sin

1 Corinthians 6: 9-10- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God Be not decieved neither fornicators,nor idolaters ,nor adulterers, nor efeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. 10. Nor theives,nor covetous,nor drunkards, nor revilers,nor extortioners,shall inherit the kingdom Of God. Iknow people who were saved that has turned their back on God and are doing these very same things. I beleive unless they ask for forgiveness the Bible says that they will not inherit the kingdom of God .Not my words, but the words of the Bible

I'm penticostal

READ the very next verse 1 cor 6:11

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