UKC Forums - Show Question

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-- Show Question (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928276731)

Posted by mike pennington on 10-18-2012 11:20 PM:

I'm not a quality show person.. i can take a good dog and loose with it. But I do know that on the ground u cant take cowhock out or pinch toes to tighten the feet or pinch the belly to fix the top line or see if a dogs feet cross over or how they carry there head or if they can track in a straight line. This is what i am looking at on a dog on the ground. Not if they run like a walking horse. If a dog has natural good traits it will look good on the ground at any speed.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 10-18-2012 11:45 PM:

thanks Mike.

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Posted by H. L. Meyer on 10-19-2012 03:00 AM:

Ok yawl win

I dont like the fact that GAITING has started playing such a important part in U K C bench shows when you only need to lead as walk your dog for a judge to evaluate it. O well I guess we will keep on running around the benches where me and smokin-1-mo will have something to be amused by.
Cynthia would you please give a little information to us un informed people in the proper way to gait our dog. ie fast,medium slow. head up head down, lead loose lead tight, small choke chain large choke chain, collar no collar, one of them braded leads or a regular hunting lead. YOU know give us a little information I wore out 2 trucks and nearly went broke learning how to stack a dog on a bench, see I paid my dues, now maybe I can learn how to Gait a dog a little cheaper, Don't know many of us coon hunters that have been to or ever heard of a handler class sponsored by or endorsed by U K C "Bench Show" people maybe this could be a first. To tired to go hunting tonight thought I might pick up a few pointers. Carry on H. L. O and color is spelled out in every breed standard so that would be a valid way to seperate a dog. HUH how did I get into all this mess that's all from me EVER gaiting sucks.

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Posted by H. L. Meyer on 10-19-2012 03:06 AM:

SHOWMAN

It's all your fault YOU got me into this showing thing. and by the way what a trip it has been. a BLAST i might add. Thanks a milion and let's GAIT of into the sunset together. WHAT U THINK?

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Posted by corky crowder on 10-19-2012 03:23 AM:

YEARS AGO IT WAS IN THE RULE BOOK GAITED ON LOOSE LEAD. AT SETWD ALL THE BIG NAMES STILL GAITED THIER DOGS ON A LEAD SO THIGHT LOOKED LIKE THIER FEET COULD BARELY TOUCH THE FLOOR ONE OF THEM WON IN EVERY CLASS . AFTER THE UKC REP WAS ASK WHAT ABOUT LOOSE LEAD RULE .HE JUST SHOOK HIS HEAD WENT ON . THE RULE ONLY IN BOOK 1 TIME

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Posted by bob country jr on 10-19-2012 03:40 AM:

Why do todays show dogs have narrow heads and look like whippets that running thing is something that i never understood. If Jenny Craig seen one of these shows she might want to buy a venders booth.

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Posted by corky crowder on 10-19-2012 03:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by bob country jr
Why do todays show dogs have narrow heads and look like whippets that running thing is something that i never understood. If Jenny Craig seen one of these shows she might want to buy a venders booth.

GOOD QUESTION

Posted by Dale Young on 10-19-2012 04:17 AM:

Here's the thing, we've always gaited dogs or were supposed to. How much & how important it is has always depended on the judge and I don't see that ever changing. If it takes some out of contention because of age or handicaps it's a shame because we've always claimed it was the dog we were judging. Regardless, most shows are won by dogs that somehow standout and appeal to the judge that day.

Posted by LMBEDDINGFIELD on 10-19-2012 03:06 PM:

Really ya'll we are going to argue over something like this....I put in my 2 cents worth to try to give some insight as to what a judge (or me as a judge) is looking for in a dog. I do not ask a lot of a handler but I do want to see what the dog looks like to be able to honestly and correctly compare that hound to its breed standard.

Good Gosh and we wonder what is wrong with out sport!!!!

Simply spelled out.... You show your dog how you want and I will show my dog how I want. You gait your dog how you want and I will gait my dog how I want!!!! Somedays you will win and somedays I will win!!!!

I will judge dogs how I want and you judge dogs how you want!!!! Ever judge is different and look for different things just look at all the major shows in the last few years. Have we had any repeat winners??? Very few and that says it all!!!!

What is the big deal!!!!! Just get along and move on!!

Acting like 5 year old kids arguing over a car on the playground isn't helping anything or anyone just making hurt feelings!!!

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Posted by River Birch Run on 10-19-2012 05:00 PM:

I have a ? since you guys are fighting over gaiting. I guess it about the way a dog should hold there head while gaiting. Seems to me common sence would lead you to belive that coonhounds being scent hounds should gait with there head down, and nose to the ground. With head up and bouncing up and down on two feet being acceptable do to dogs winding a coon.

Posted by Penny Jessup on 10-23-2012 05:23 PM:

It bothers me the way this thread has played out. I wish we weren't getting so upset about the gaiting.

I hate to say it...but I think gaiting is here to stay. I don't think the tide of how we are showing dogs and gaiting them will ever swing back to the way it was 20 years ago when you just led them to the bench and it was just what they did on the bench that determined the winner.

If you want a judge's input on this question of how much weight for gaiting, well, here's mine: I don't necessarily assign any point value to gaiting.

Point system went out of the rule book a few years ago. And I do remember hearing one well known man who I respect who had the points down on every part of a dog. I mean he had 2 and half points for this and it's 5 points for that. It was amazing the amount of time he had to have studied a dog to have it down that way. I never did get it all straight in my mind to that degree. But, it did give me a foundation to start when I became serious about showing and eventually judging. What I mean is...it helped me understand the original emphasis on the importance of different parts of the dog. (Like nice feet and a smooth, strong back, nice head, etc)

Gaiting a dog and seeing it go and where is places its feet will help you evaluate how sound the dog is. It's not the only thing we do in our BENCH SHOWS. We also judge the dogs on the bench. That's the way the program exists today and that's how I'll judge them. I will ALWAYS judge them on the bench.

And I think BENCH SHOWS are here to stay. They were started in the 1940's and remain the primary way of showing coonhounds. I don't think we will EVER see coonhounds shown only in the conformation ring. Look around...there aren't nearly as many coonhounds showing in those shows. And UKC wants to keep coonhounds participating in their events. It's more profitable to keep the coonhound events bigger and more people participating. Again...just an observation and my own opinion.

Sometimes dogs will flow across the ground, but sadly doesn't present you the same fine specimen on the bench. (So you keep looking....) Sometimes one of the best looking dogs on the bench will throw his feet out or gaited sideways. (So..look harder at all the dogs.......) Is that dog STILL the best dog OVERALL? That's up to you as the judge.

My personal opinion is....find the BEST dog. But ideally it should have it BOTH WAYS...on the ground AND on the bench. (MY OPINION)

When it comes to gaiting and running with a dog...I don't think anyone proposes people to do that and ever hurt themselves. I judged several dogs at AO that didn't "run" and I gave ALL of them a fair look. One I could name easily won a nice class with serious competition, so it wasn't just about the running part. It was still the best dog.

A nice dog is still a nice dog, walking or running or standing on the bench or the hardwood!

And one more observation.....I know I know.....I should have stopped before I ever replied.....but that gaiting with the nose on the ground thing. If I'm outside hunting or on grass....you bet I EXPECT to see my dog with his nose on the ground because it's totally natural and if my dog doesn't do that...he's probably a sorry son of a gun.

But in a show ring with concrete floor??? come on...no judge is going to majorly fault any coonhound for putting his head down, but in the ring if he puts his head down and it stays down...the dog is either looking to pee or poo cause it's highly unlikely its gonna strike any kind of legitimate running track! Our coonhounds don't walk around 24/7 with their heads down. So, it's not that difficult of an idea to expect them to walk beside a handler for 30 seconds or a minute with their heads up looking around rather than down on the ground.

Ok...I had my say.

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Posted by LMBEDDINGFIELD on 10-23-2012 06:05 PM:

Well put Penny...

I tried to give my input as what I look at with the gating as a judge and seem to go no where...

It bothered me too how fast this thread went down hill over nothing... I was just not as politically correct in my 2nd response. I to just do not understand why it has to be such a big deal. Everything in the world changes on a daily basis as so did this one aspect of showing our coondhounds.

I just wanted everyone to get along and not argue over something like this. It is what it is and there is not a lot that cn be done. You are going to have judges that use it more and some that use it less. You just have to pick the judges that you choose to show under I suppose.

Hope everyone has a great day and we will see everyone very soon. Grand American will be here before we know it.

Posted by Cleo on 10-23-2012 07:36 PM:

My hat is off to all of you who judge these events!

You guys take the time out of you busy schedule, (not to mention give up your own show time) spend your money on gas, help those of us who are learning or want to learn and pretty much do all of this for free!

This too shall pass.

Ladies and gents, please continue what your doing! The changes are hard to adjust to, but it will happen.

Keeping this sport going is a big thing to a lot of folks! Thanks to all of you who judge!

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 10-23-2012 10:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Penny Jessup
It bothers me the way this thread has played out. I wish we weren't getting so upset about the gaiting.

I hate to say it...but I think gaiting is here to stay. I don't think the tide of how we are showing dogs and gaiting them will ever swing back to the way it was 20 years ago when you just led them to the bench and it was just what they did on the bench that determined the winner.

If you want a judge's input on this question of how much weight for gaiting, well, here's mine: I don't necessarily assign any point value to gaiting.

Point system went out of the rule book a few years ago. And I do remember hearing one well known man who I respect who had the points down on every part of a dog. I mean he had 2 and half points for this and it's 5 points for that. It was amazing the amount of time he had to have studied a dog to have it down that way. I never did get it all straight in my mind to that degree. But, it did give me a foundation to start when I became serious about showing and eventually judging. What I mean is...it helped me understand the original emphasis on the importance of different parts of the dog. (Like nice feet and a smooth, strong back, nice head, etc)

Gaiting a dog and seeing it go and where is places its feet will help you evaluate how sound the dog is. It's not the only thing we do in our BENCH SHOWS. We also judge the dogs on the bench. That's the way the program exists today and that's how I'll judge them. I will ALWAYS judge them on the bench.

And I think BENCH SHOWS are here to stay. They were started in the 1940's and remain the primary way of showing coonhounds. I don't think we will EVER see coonhounds shown only in the conformation ring. Look around...there aren't nearly as many coonhounds showing in those shows. And UKC wants to keep coonhounds participating in their events. It's more profitable to keep the coonhound events bigger and more people participating. Again...just an observation and my own opinion.

Sometimes dogs will flow across the ground, but sadly doesn't present you the same fine specimen on the bench. (So you keep looking....) Sometimes one of the best looking dogs on the bench will throw his feet out or gaited sideways. (So..look harder at all the dogs.......) Is that dog STILL the best dog OVERALL? That's up to you as the judge.

My personal opinion is....find the BEST dog. But ideally it should have it BOTH WAYS...on the ground AND on the bench. (MY OPINION)

When it comes to gaiting and running with a dog...I don't think anyone proposes people to do that and ever hurt themselves. I judged several dogs at AO that didn't "run" and I gave ALL of them a fair look. One I could name easily won a nice class with serious competition, so it wasn't just about the running part. It was still the best dog.

A nice dog is still a nice dog, walking or running or standing on the bench or the hardwood!

And one more observation.....I know I know.....I should have stopped before I ever replied.....but that gaiting with the nose on the ground thing. If I'm outside hunting or on grass....you bet I EXPECT to see my dog with his nose on the ground because it's totally natural and if my dog doesn't do that...he's probably a sorry son of a gun.

But in a show ring with concrete floor??? come on...no judge is going to majorly fault any coonhound for putting his head down, but in the ring if he puts his head down and it stays down...the dog is either looking to pee or poo cause it's highly unlikely its gonna strike any kind of legitimate running track! Our coonhounds don't walk around 24/7 with their heads down. So, it's not that difficult of an idea to expect them to walk beside a handler for 30 seconds or a minute with their heads up looking around rather than down on the ground.

Ok...I had my say.

that is what i was looking for just an honest opinion
thanks

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Posted by Emily on 10-23-2012 11:28 PM:

miscellaneous gaiting experience

I'm not a serious bench show person, but I do have a little experience here. A couple of years ago I made a GRCH of a cute hound-y redbone who didn't like to stand still on a bench. He gaited beautifully at high speed, but got distracted at a slower pace. His speedier gait was very hound-y, and I really liked that about him. He's been real fast at field trials, too. Much to my surprise, when I gaited him at small local events, I was asked by different judges to do it again at a slower speed. I complied with the judges' requests, but he did not look his best for them.
At the big shows, there's usually an indoor ring, but at a lot of smaller events, the shows are outside. A dog on a lead should not have his nose down if he isn't in a hunting situation. It is easier to keep his nose up if you're leading him faster, but a show lead will take care of the problem.
And yes, most hounds will trail on concrete. I lived in Brooklyn NY for awhile, and my hounds would trail where my husband had gone when I took them out for a walk hours later. They would also get very excited and put their noses down to trail other dogs they knew and liked. I also let them chase alley cats occasionally, and they would open on alley cat on lead. Hound noses are more than good enough to trail on concrete, and as long as they are not the first dog in the show, they will sniff where other dogs have been if you let them when they are showing.
I've seen smaller shows indoors in the winter where many of the dogs had never been on an indoor surface before and just slunk along and refused to show their gaits. That was the handler's fault for not getting them used to wood or concrete.
My experience has been that the dogs are gaited faster at the bigger events. I've never seen a judge at a big event ask a handler to change their pace.
UKC events, even the bigger ones, are less formal than AKC events. Plenty of dogs will lift their leg on a show bench and no one shows in a jacket and tie. Some judges will have one opinion, others another. Gait your dog at whatever pace you think makes him look best, and if the judge that day doesn't like it, another will.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 10-24-2012 01:38 AM:

maybe from 1940

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