UKC Forums - score this

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-- score this (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928276032)

Posted by josh on 10-13-2012 04:57 PM:

A 2-2 vote is circled.....If a MOH decides otherwise, file a formal.....You will win.

You can take this to the bank.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 10-13-2012 06:10 PM:

Were you the judge or something Max destruction? You seem to be having a hard time believing folks.

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Posted by max destruction on 10-13-2012 06:29 PM:

I judge alot and no this has NEVER been a issue in my cast,just hear alota talk about it!

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Posted by Rip on 10-13-2012 09:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
I dont feel a judge should hold any more weight than any other cast member I just wanna no for sure

Max, you do know for sure. The Advisor is the official UKC rule interpretation. It has been posted in this thread twice. Tie votes are circled because you have to have a majority to plus or minus a tree.

Again you have to look at the order of the rules. You are quoting a rule that DOES NOT APPLY. How do you know it doesn't apply? Simple, it is a general rule, hunting judge scores etc. BUT you have a very specific rule clearly stating that trees are not scored by a judge but are scored by VOTE. Then you have clear individual rules saying you have to have a majority to plus, you have to have a majority to minus so you can't do either one. What's left? Circle or delete.

Thats where UKC comes in with the advisor. They tell us plainly that we circle that situation.

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Posted by JiM on 10-13-2012 09:56 PM:

Rip, you do a heck of a job explaining these rules.
Probably the biggest problem handlers/judges have with UKC's rules is that it is not enough just to know the rules. Just knowing the rules and nothing else is prolly worse than knowing nothing. YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHICH RULES TAKE PRESIDENSE OVER OTHER RULES. There are several areas where the rules seem to be in direct conflict until you understand which rules override.
You have a very plainly stated rule that says the judge makes all the calls and then you have those 4 exceptions to that rule. It definitely confuses.

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Posted by Rip on 10-13-2012 11:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Rip, you do a heck of a job explaining these rules.
Probably the biggest problem handlers/judges have with UKC's rules is that it is not enough just to know the rules. Just knowing the rules and nothing else is prolly worse than knowing nothing. YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHICH RULES TAKE PRESIDENSE OVER OTHER RULES. There are several areas where the rules seem to be in direct conflict until you understand which rules override.
You have a very plainly stated rule that says the judge makes all the calls and then you have those 4 exceptions to that rule. It definitely confuses.

Yeah, that's where you have to realize that anytime you have a rule that covers the exact situation it takes precidence over a generalized rule.

I approach it like this

1. Does a specific rule cover this situation

2. If not then which rules apply and what is the language in them (will vs may etc) and where do they come in at? Are they general rules or other rules. In other words a rule in the "scoring" section would over ride a "general" rule because is the most specific for that situation. I just keep going up the line working backwards so to speak, exact rule, rule in that heading, heading in that section, section in that general area and then finally to the general rules.

3. If I still don't know I try to remember an advisor, but there is so dang many of them I can get confused LOL.

I think trying to approach it systematically like that helps which keeps me using the most specific rule possible for that situation. That "working backwards" approach has pretty much kept me straight on these things through the years but I still get it wrong sometimes too just like everybody else.

Thanks for the kind words, means alot coming from you.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 10-14-2012 01:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
a hunting judge makes the call, then if someone doesn't like the call they can bring it up to a vote. but you need a majority to plus or minus a tree. other wise it is circled.

Dan, the hunting judge does not make the call. If you read my earlier posts you will understand the three situations that a cast vote must be done because you are using a hunting judge. All other situations besides those three a hunting judge makes the call and then if a cast member is not satisfied they can ask for a vote. A hunting judge has no more authority then any of the other cast members.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 10-14-2012 02:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
Dan, the hunting judge does not make the call. If you read my earlier posts you will understand the three situations that a cast vote must be done because you are using a hunting judge. All other situations besides those three a hunting judge makes the call and then if a cast member is not satisfied they can ask for a vote. A hunting judge has no more authority then any of the other cast members.

then read 18 (b) sentence 2 and 3 the only difference between a hunting judge and a non hunting judge is, a non hunting cannot be overuled my a majority of the cast. only by the moh or a hunt panel.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 10-14-2012 02:23 AM:

Just like ot was mentioned earlier some rules over rule others. I have had this question come up before at hunts and have had the same response as you are giving. Look at it like this, the rules I am telling you all come before rule 18. This means they over rule anything that comes after. On the three rules I mentioned a judge votes just like the other cast members. On all other rulings he rules but can be overturned by a majority vote if he is a hunting judge. There are only three rules that mention " a mojority cast vote " is required to make the decision. Scoring a tree, calling timeout, and a previosly scored tree situation.

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Posted by headless01 on 10-14-2012 02:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Its circled. Just remember a hunting judge is nothing more than a glorified time keeper lol.

oh my no wonder so many people get cheated in these hunts.

Posted by Dan Dogs on 10-14-2012 02:47 AM:

I agree a hunting judge only has a vote. but a good judge makes his call and if someone ? his call you bring it to a vote. it stops a lot of hee hawing around on every tree made. if you ask every cast member how they want the tree scored if no coon is seen. you get a bunch of, well i dont know what do you think johnny, then johnny says well it might be leafy enuff to circle, what do you think jimmy. if im judging and there is no coon seen by anybody in the cast. i make my decision, then if someone don't like it they can vote circle or minus then get back to hunting.

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 10-14-2012 02:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
I agree a hunting judge only has a vote. but a good judge makes his call and if someone ? his call you bring it to a vote. it stops a lot of hee hawing around on every tree made. if you ask every cast member how they want the tree scored if no coon is seen. you get a bunch of, well i dont know what do you think johnny, then johnny says well it might be leafy enuff to circle, what do you think jimmy. if im judging and there is no coon seen by anybody in the cast. i make my decision, then if someone don't like it they can vote circle or minus then get back to hunting.

If you are judging a cast that way then you are judging it wrong. If a cast member does not give you their vote in a voting situation then they are scratched. That is by the rules.

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Posted by max destruction on 10-14-2012 08:49 AM:

Exactly! Thank you everybody!

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Rip, you do a heck of a job explaining these rules.
Probably the biggest problem handlers/judges have with UKC's rules is that it is not enough just to know the rules. Just knowing the rules and nothing else is prolly worse than knowing nothing. YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHICH RULES TAKE PRESIDENSE OVER OTHER RULES. There are several areas where the rules seem to be in direct conflict until you understand which rules override.
You have a very plainly stated rule that says the judge makes all the calls and then you have those 4 exceptions to that rule. It definitely confuses.

__________________
Jesse nappin
TEAM TREEDOGG!

Posted by runnin rebels on 10-14-2012 05:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
Exactly! Thank you everybody!

Jesse,

Congrats on your win last night. Must feel good to have a dog out of your breeding winning.

now back to the question. after all this discussion. you and I draw out and you are the hunting judge. our dogs get treed and we see no coon. you vote to circle and I vote to minus. What are you going to put on the card?

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Posted by max destruction on 10-14-2012 05:55 PM:

If its a 2 dog cast DELETE,if its a 3-4 dog cast itll depend how the other voting members vote.

Thank you Brad!

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Posted by truly on 10-14-2012 06:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
If its a 2 dog cast DELETE,if its a 3-4 dog cast itll depend how the other voting members vote.

Thank you Brad!

You are going to DELETE? Please cite what rule you are using to delete in a tie vote.

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Max, you do know for sure. The Advisor is the official UKC rule interpretation. It has been posted in this thread twice. Tie votes are circled because you have to have a majority to plus or minus a tree.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 10-14-2012 07:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
If its a 2 dog cast DELETE,if its a 3-4 dog cast itll depend how the other voting members vote.

Thank you Brad!

Still a tie vote..........not delete.......circle.

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Posted by runnin rebels on 10-14-2012 08:44 PM:

http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/News...6122005015906PM

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Posted by JiM on 10-14-2012 08:46 PM:

Give it up guys.
He's gonna delete it no matter what the Advisor says, no matter how much it is discussed, no matter ANYTHING....he's gonna delete it. So leave it alone. Some people want to get it right, others just want it their way. No way this should be 5 pages. I mean who gives a chit how they score it in Minn anyway?

Posted by max destruction on 10-14-2012 08:49 PM:

Its CIRCLED I apoligize,this is where I hate ukc rules,you need 4 rule books to determine a rule ? Corectly!

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Posted by max destruction on 10-14-2012 08:52 PM:

Well Jim I do care or I wouldnt have started this post and after reading brads link I see its circled,sorry if were not all geniuses like you!

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Give it up guys.
He's gonna delete it no matter what the Advisor says, no matter how much it is discussed, no matter ANYTHING....he's gonna delete it. So leave it alone. Some people want to get it right, others just want it their way. No way this should be 5 pages. I mean who gives a chit how they score it in Minn anyway?

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Posted by runnin rebels on 10-14-2012 08:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
Its CIRCLED I apoligize,this is where I hate ukc rules,you need 4 rule books to determine a rule ? Corectly!

Jesse,

It is not your fault. We were all told wrong by someone we all respect and expect should know the right answer.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 10-14-2012 09:50 PM:

A tie vote is a tie vote no matter how many are in a cast. 2 to 2 in a four dog cast. 1 to 1 to 1 in a three dog cast. 1 to 1 in a two dog cast. All are tie votes and all are circled. It is simple and should not have to be explained but one time.

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Posted by kayapellijed390 on 10-14-2012 10:11 PM:

Maybe we should only have three and five dog casts so that nobidy gets confused and we never have a tie vite situation. LOL!

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 10-14-2012 10:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by kayapellijed390
Maybe we should only have three and five dog casts so that nobidy gets confused and we never have a tie vite situation. LOL!

You can still have a tie with a three dog cast if one votes minus, one votes plus, and one votes circle. You got three choices on how to score a tree. What if its a four dog cast and one votes plus, one votes circle, and two vote minus? You don't have majority vote nor do you have a tie vote.

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