UKC Forums - Judge this??

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Posted by turman on 09-27-2012 12:59 AM:

I would like to hear Jim`s opinion on this one, he did say the cast saw the dogs on the previously scored tree before they left.

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-27-2012 01:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
You would be minusing points that dont exist, when they walked in those dogs were on a previously scored tree at that moment those points dissapeared.

they wasn't on the tree when they went in from what i read. they were moving on to another tree, therefore minus them. what if they would have not went to another tree after they were called treed and went on tracking? its a bad situation, but they were called treed and not treed but moving when they came in to the tree, so by the rules they are minused. since they were moving after being called treed, how would you realy know what tree they were on or not.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-27-2012 01:20 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
they wasn't on the tree when they went in from what i read. they were moving on to another tree, therefore minus them. what if they would have not went to another tree after they were called treed and went on tracking? its a bad situation, but they were called treed and not treed but moving when they came in to the tree, so by the rules they are minused. since they were moving after being called treed, how would you realy know what tree they were on or not.

It says "As they arrive all dogs are seen on one tree" one dog stays the other 2 leave aparently before they can be handled, but reguardless they were seen to be treed on a previously scored tree. At that moment if i am carrying the card I say points are deleted handle your dogs.

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-27-2012 01:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
It says "As they arrive all dogs are seen on one tree" one dog stays the other 2 leave aparently before they can be handled.

guess i read it wrong, but to me they would still have to be handled on the tree they were called treed on. i would love to hear how Allen or Tod would score this. kind of a catch 22 lol. i believe i would minus it, let the cast ? it, then the master of hounds could settle it.

Posted by joey on 09-27-2012 01:52 AM:

Once they are called treed they have to be handled were they where treed. What's being missed is you are not "scoring the tree" you are handling dogs that have been declared treed and that has to be done on the tree they were declared on.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 09-27-2012 01:59 AM:

i dont know i would say if 2-3 have had there azz busted a couple times for going back may be why they left maybe
a little more training.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-27-2012 02:04 AM:

Dogs leave trees all the time, they take minus tree points and are held accountabl for their strike, but in this case they were on a tree that can not be scored +,-, or circle so my inclination would be to handle the dog that stayed, delete his points,delete the tree points on te other 2,back out and see how things unfold, start the 8 and go from there.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 09-27-2012 02:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Dogs leave trees all the time, they take minus tree points and are held accountabl for their strike, but in this case they were on a tree that can not be scored +,-, or circle so my inclination would be to handle the dog that stayed, delete his points,delete the tree points on te other 2,back out and see how things unfold, start the 8 and go from there.

whats the old saying nothing good can happen after the 1st tree move on to the next bucket

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Posted by D.Boyd on 09-27-2012 02:19 AM:

As a matter of fact one of the dogs we had to run down about 75 yards away. It just left. The way I see it the dogs left where they were called treed. Minus period. Dogs were seen leaving no way around not being minused. Show a rule.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-27-2012 02:26 AM:

I showed you the rule that says they cant receive any points on a previously scored tree. read the section on POINTS WILL BE DELETED on the back of the card.

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-27-2012 02:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I showed you the rule that says they cant receive any points on a previously scored tree. read the section on POINTS WILL BE DELETED on the back of the card.

that only applies to a dog handled on a previous scored tree, but not one running off like he just stated above. neither dogs were handled on that tree. i will ask Allen tomorrow myself and post what he says.

Posted by ssgied on 09-27-2012 02:33 AM:

Rule 5 E and H, the rule says nothing about being handled.

Posted by john Duemmer on 09-27-2012 02:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
that only applies to a dog handled on a previous scored tree, but not one running off like he just stated above. neither dogs were handled on that tree. i will ask Allen tomorrow myself and post what he says.

The rule doesnt say anything about them being handled there, here it is word for word.
" No points not even circle points will be awardedwhen dogs return to tree that had previously been scored, cast may go to tree without dogs being declared treed, if majority of cast agree when hunting judges are used."

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-27-2012 02:46 AM:

i believe that is just common sense and knowledge that you have to handle the dogs or the dog that stayed would not have had to put his on the leash. MINUS will have to be the only call ukc can give because the 2 dogs that left could have gotten treed on another tree not yet scored and leash locked the dog that was handled on the tree they were all suppose to be treed on and double jeopardy the dog and handler doing right.

Posted by stillwater farm on 09-27-2012 02:50 AM:

When a dog has been declared treed and leaves tree it is minused.It's not being handled at any tree at this point when it leaves so how can you say same tree.Remove the smoke and it should clear everything up........It was declared treed and left before handled,I say minus the dog and run the 8 on him.JMO.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-27-2012 02:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
i believe that is just common sense and knowledge that you have to handle the dogs or the dog that stayed would not have had to put his on the leash. MINUS will have to be the only call ukc can give because the 2 dogs that left could have gotten treed on another tree not yet scored and leash locked the dog that was handled on the tree they were all suppose to be treed on and double jeopardy the dog and handler doing right.

Theres nothing right about a dog going back. he certainly wouldnt be leash locked, as soon as one of the other 2 opened he could be recast. I would be interested to hear an official response.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-27-2012 02:56 AM:

I could jump right on the minus bandwagon with you guys EXCEPT those dogs were seen to be treed on a previously scored tree.

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-27-2012 02:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
When a dog has been declared treed and leaves tree it is minused.It's not being handled at any tree at this point when it leaves so how can you say same tree.Remove the smoke and it should clear everything up........It was declared treed and left before handled,I say minus the dog and run the 8 on him.JMO.

im with ya Tom! minuse the tree leaving suckers and hand 22 to the owners lol.

Posted by stillwater farm on 09-27-2012 02:57 AM:

A dog must be handled at a tree before scoring the tree,including declaring it a dead tree.If it's been treed and leaves before handled,it's minused.

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Posted by stillwater farm on 09-27-2012 02:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
im with ya Tom! minuse the tree leaving suckers and hand 22 to the owners lol.

I didn't say all that or I wouldn't have a dog on the place.LOL.

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-27-2012 03:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
I didn't say all that or I wouldn't have a dog on the place.LOL.

lol me either just having fun

Posted by stillwater farm on 09-27-2012 03:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I could jump right on the minus bandwagon with you guys EXCEPT those dogs were seen to be treed on a previously scored tree.

A dog must be handled before you can score the tree John.If it leaves before handled it's minused and yes,I have minused my own for the same exact thing before.I call it shell shocked cause I was in the process of breaking one from going back and it knew what was coming if I got ahold of it.LOL.

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Posted by joey on 09-27-2012 03:18 AM:

Trust me John once the dog has been declared treed it has to be handled

Posted by JiM on 09-27-2012 04:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
A dog must be handled at a tree before scoring the tree,including declaring it a dead tree.If it's been treed and leaves before handled,it's minused.

You need to read rule 5(e). The dogs DO NOT have to be treed when they return to a previously scored tree. They can be handled and recast without being treed. I don't know if these dogs were declared treed or not but it doesn't matter because the first sentence in the rule says no points, that means no plus. no minus and no circle, can be awarded when a dog returns to a previously scored tree.

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-27-2012 04:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You need to read rule 5(e). The dogs DO NOT have to be treed when they return to a previously scored tree. They can be handled and recast without being treed. I don't know if these dogs were declared treed or not but it doesn't matter because the first sentence in the rule says no points, that means no plus. no minus and no circle, can be awarded when a dog returns to a previously scored tree.

just because a dog goes in the direction of a previosly scored tree doesn't give you the right to handle and recast a dog. they have the right to go in that direction and find another coon. the situation wasn't handled right to begin with, but since they struck and treed the dogs they have to go to the tree and handle them. once arriving at the tree and 2 dogs have left that were declared treed and are moving on, they are minused. in the process of the dog that stayed treed and was handled lets say the dogs that left got treed on another tree with a coon that hadn't been yet scored, what would you do? that would leave the dog handled leash locked and screwed for staying treed. when they leave after being called treed they should be minused because they can still get treed with another coon to plus.

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