UKC Forums - Another dandy scoring question

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Posted by jaydubya on 10-11-2006 03:39 PM:

I just asked TK about this last week.He said:strike points deleted if shut out dog: quits track and comes into cast,8 minutes get him,he comes into tree after cast arrives and coon is seen,he backs dog on closed tree( undeclared dog treeing).

Posted by on 10-11-2006 04:44 PM:

Kellem didn't tell you to delete strike points when a dog quits a track or the 8 gets him. I know better than that. If a dog quits a track or the 8 catches, it don't matter if the dog was struck shutout or not, that dog is minused. Don't try peddling that bs around here.

Posted by elvis on 10-11-2006 08:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Kellem didn't tell you to delete strike points when a dog quits a track or the 8 gets him. I know better than that. If a dog quits a track or the 8 catches, it don't matter if the dog was struck shutout or not, that dog is minused. Don't try peddling that bs around here.

sorry jim.
if you wanna go by the rules,and i know you do,the ONLY way those underlined strike points can be minussed or plussed is if the dog trees on a seperate tree from the one he was shut out on.
DOG WALKS IN? DELETE
8 GETS THE DOG? DELETE

Posted by Dan Dogs on 10-11-2006 09:11 PM:

jim

you mean to tell me you didn't know that!!!!!!!!!!!!!me neitherLOL
learn something new every day!!WOW

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Posted by on 10-11-2006 09:19 PM:

The only way shutout strike is deleted is if the dog shutout trees with the dog that shut it out.

Posted by on 10-11-2006 09:47 PM:

I can find just two rules that mention "dogs shutout on strike". Rule 4(g) and rule5(g). Neither of them deletes the strike points of any dog unless that dogs trees with the dog that shut it out. Anything else, those strike points are scored. Show me in the rulebook where you can delete strike points because a dog shutout on strike quit it's track. I want to see that rule.

Posted by WILD DOG on 10-11-2006 10:10 PM:

THEY SHOWED IT TO YOU..WHAT PART OF CANNOT RECIEVE PLUS OR MINUS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND...

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Posted by larrypoe on 10-11-2006 10:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
The only way shutout strike is deleted is if the dog shutout trees with the dog that shut it out.

Thats what I thought...................

Posted by elvis on 10-11-2006 10:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Actually this is what happens sometimes when re writing rules. It has unintended consequences or sometimes fails to fix previous unintended consequences. A dog struck after the others tree has always had this loophole, and it would have been nice if the re-write were to have fixed it, but it didn't.

According to the way rules are, 3d wins out because it specifically tells you what to do in that specific situation. Basically the dog has to actually make a tree somewhere for those strike points to be eligible for scoring.

I don't like it, but as the rules read right now that's is what must happen because the rule is specific and applies for that situation.

UKC will have to come out with a specific advisor to say different in order for those points to be scored. They could also ammend the wording of the rule to say "if dog does not make a tree refer to rule 4.

thats pretty much the sum of it.
cmon jim,your slipping.LOL LOL.

Posted by K. Singletary on 10-11-2006 10:43 PM:

I agree with Jim. I have never seen this scored any other way than minus. The line is removed from under the strike when the dog does not come into the tree where he is shut out. If we go the way you guys are saying you could recast to a dog opening on track, the 8 could catch him and he still wouldn't be minused because he hasn't made a tree. I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

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Posted by elvis on 10-11-2006 11:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
I agree with Jim. I have never seen this scored any other way than minus. The line is removed from under the strike when the dog does not come into the tree where he is shut out. If we go the way you guys are saying you could recast to a dog opening on track, the 8 could catch him and he still wouldn't be minused because he hasn't made a tree. I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

you cannot remove the line from under thats dogs strike points untill that dog gets treed on a seperate tree.untill then you cannot score those points in any way shape or form except delete.
heck these arent my rules.lol.its whats written in black and white on the back of the scorecard.can we pick and choose which rules we want to follow?just because its a flaw in the system doesnt mean its not still a rule that can and will be appealed to,and upheld by ukc.

Posted by K. Singletary on 10-11-2006 11:23 PM:

d. Dog cannot receive plus or minus strike points if he is not on trail when first dog is declared treed unless he trees on separate tree. However, he may receive tree points if he trees within five minutes. Dogs that strike must be declared struck and recorded by Judge.

So, if he catches a coon on the ground he can't receive plus strike points either. LOL Or do you guys want to quote another rule to cover that one.

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Posted by Bruce Conkey on 10-11-2006 11:27 PM:

I can't read so I won't get into any discussion on what the rules say, but I will say this. I would use rule 4e and minus the dog.
In no way shape or form was putting a line under a dogs strike points ever intended to be anything but a reminder to the judge on how to score the dog if he showed up on the tree with the dog/dogs declared treeing.

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Posted by on 10-12-2006 12:15 AM:

Well, after reading 3(d), it looks to me like Elvis is right (he usually is). It is plain enough. No minus or plus unless the dog trees on a separate tree. So if Ajax strikes and trees and Jessi gets struck on a different track as we go in to score Ajax...score Ajax's tree, recast to Jessi trailing, Ajax strikes back in for 50 trailing with Jessi. Track peters out, 8 catches both dogs, Ajax minused 50, Jessi deleted 75. At least that is how 3(d) tells it. Dumb as hell but it appears that is the rule.
Moral of the story....don't get caught up trying to use too much logic when it comes to UKC rules....

Posted by Dan Dogs on 10-12-2006 12:35 AM:

is there

a rule that says dog must open in 8 min or will be minus. that sounds specific to me.

Posted by on 10-12-2006 12:40 AM:

Sure there is Dan. But apparently 3(d) takes presidense over the 8 minute rule. There are several rules that conflict. You just have to know which rule takes presidense. Not alway easy thing to do.

Posted by owitt1936 on 10-12-2006 02:04 AM:

I agree with Elvis,

on this one.

I have ARGUED in the past with several of you about the WORDING of several different Rules. What the Rule ACTUALLY SAYS, & WHAT IT INTENDED TO SAY, were two completly different ways of handeling the same situation.

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Posted by Donnie Stevens on 10-12-2006 03:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Moral of the story....don't get caught up trying to use too much logic when it comes to UKC rules....

Yea,this one goes right up there with not being able to minus a registered dog for baying or even killing off game.

Jim i was with ya till Elvis showed up.LOL

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Posted by Donnie Stevens on 10-12-2006 03:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary

So, if he catches a coon on the ground he can't receive plus strike points either.

Anybody got an answer for this one.

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Posted by Darrell on 10-12-2006 12:05 PM:

The rewriting of this rule was supposed to clear up just this type of situation. Obviously it didn't.

I'm pretty sure, almost positive, that one that tree is scored, if that dog hasn't showed up, his strike goes on the card. I'll see if I can find the old post (I have already been through this with the old wording), when I got time and less better things to do...

Posted by jaydubya on 10-12-2006 09:17 PM:

I can forward 2 e-mails with 8 different shut out scenerios with TK's answers if you want.
I agree the shut out dog can get saved from minus strike points but read about undeclared dogs treeing slick or off game on the card,"assign tree points and minus(strike and tree)SHUT OUT DOGS MINUS TREE POINTS ONLY",there's one example in black and white.

Posted by on 10-12-2006 09:30 PM:

Read 3(d). This is the rule Elvis is useing to backup his explanation as to why a shutout dog cannot be minused for quitting a track. But I think Elvis is wrong. And TK, if he in fact said what jaydubya says he said. Here is why....3(d) states that "Dog cannotr recieve plus or minus strike points if he is not on trail when first dog is declared treed unless he trees on sparate tree". And that rule stops at the point the dog is no longer declared treed! When the dog that was treed is recast, you no longer have a dog declared treed and at that point, no dog is considered shut out. So any dog quitting a track after the treed dog is recast would be no longer considered shut out and would be minused for quitting a track.

Posted by Bruce Conkey on 10-12-2006 09:41 PM:

I would love to hear from a UKC official person on this rule.

JiM and Elvis are usually official enough for me but not this time, sorry guys.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 10-12-2006 09:45 PM:

wish

ukc would throw there 2cents worth in on this?

Posted by Bruce Conkey on 10-12-2006 10:17 PM:

If two rules conflict how do you know which one to go by?

4e tells me to minus the dog.

4e. When a dog quits a trail that is being worked and comes in, he will be minused, Judges decision; or if none of the declared struck dogs open within 8 minutes, the strike will be considered finished and minused. However, if the dog goes back on the trail, he will get the next available position. Once a position has been scored it becomes available again; however, a dog cannot be struck �in� over a dog�s position that is being held. (If all positions are taken, dog will receive 25 points for going back, but these points will be minused every time he comes out. He is not to be tied or encouraged to go back.)

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