UKC Forums - Yet another "how to score"?

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-- Yet another "how to score"? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=507997)

Posted by Dale Young on 06-11-2012 04:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bill(Chew)
Haven't ya'll ever heard of Hollering?

What I was thinking.

Posted by Tully on 06-11-2012 04:55 AM:

Everybody's cell phone number is on the scorecard anymore!

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Posted by buzzardcreek on 06-11-2012 05:27 AM:

a good judge will ask you to keep em barking so we can find our way back a majority of the cast can score a tree

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 06-11-2012 12:21 PM:

I agree with Jim on the 2 minutes. It can not be ran on a handled dog. My question for the cast, how is a handled dog become lost, or start working another trail? YES, Garmins that track hounds must be turned off in the woods and should be. The E-trax can be left on all the time, as can the backtracker. A compass has never been illegal.Hollowering sounds like a reasonable way to find another handler, but i don't think the dog is going to hollower back. Now here is the million dollar question to this all. What idiot would tie a dog back in the woods and leave the spot un-marked for return by a legal tracking device? Come on guys. this one is common sense and it seems some lack it.

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Posted by jculler8 on 06-11-2012 01:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
You know bud I don't find it amusing when your calling me a poor sport for wanting to go handle my dog when its 75 to 80 degrees at night. The rule clearly allows split treed dogs to be handled. To hell with waiting 10, 15, 20 minutes. It says dogs to be treed 5 minutes and be at the tree if at all possible. If 6 eyes can't find the coon then there's a very small chance I will. Sportsmanship in this situation tells me to say hey bud go handle that dog and come back into help us score the tree. And if the dogs far away split I will say handle your dog and wait for us to come score your tree. That my friend is following the rules exactly. Trying to tell someone they can't handle their dog that is lit treed is poor sportsmanship all around.

Not necessarily. Now Trevor, you need to think what makes up a "MAJORITY" of the cast...

Is a majority of the CAST 2 out of the 3 shining while yay hoo is looking for fido???

Or is a majority of the CAST 3 out of the 4???

That right there is the real question. I'll let anyone go out and look for their dog ALL nite long while mine is hunting as long as the 2 out of the 3 I am hunting with are a majority...

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Posted by jculler8 on 06-11-2012 01:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
I don't think its very common truly. Like I said if a guy can't get his dog. to bark here and there once its handled then somethings seriously wrong. My Mouse female often hushes when I handle her split but you can bet I make sure she barks once I hear the others hush. Then I know they are done scoring the tree and will be headed my way.

Sounds to me like only part of your casts are shining trees. In my book, that is a BIG NO NO!

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-11-2012 03:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
Sounds to me like only part of your casts are shining trees. In my book, that is a BIG NO NO!

Part? How is 1 handler going to his split dog part? In my estimation that still leaves 3 people to score the tree which is all you need.

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Posted by jculler8 on 06-11-2012 03:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
Part? How is 1 handler going to his split dog part? In my estimation that still leaves 3 people to score the tree which is all you need.

And all it takes is 1 of those 3 to say he doesn't see or can't see the coon! Did you see it while you were sitting w Mouse waiting on them to come to you??? What's your vote?

Posted by jculler8 on 06-11-2012 03:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
Part? How is 1 handler going to his split dog part? In my estimation that still leaves 3 people to score the tree which is all you need.

Read up... It says "Majority of the cast" majority is 3 out of 4 votes. If you aren't voting, you are not a part of the cast.

Do you understand now Trevor?

Sorry to original post, but I have seen this situation arise and cost someone. Big learning experience on my part as well.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-11-2012 03:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
Not necessarily. Now Trevor, you need to think what makes up a "MAJORITY" of the cast...

Is a majority of the CAST 2 out of the 3 shining while yay hoo is looking for fido???

Or is a majority of the CAST 3 out of the 4???

That right there is the real question. I'll let anyone go out and look for their dog ALL nite long while mine is hunting as long as the 2 out of the 3 I am hunting with are a majority...

ill tell you a story from a hunt last year. 3 dog cast. We cut loose mine strikes for 100 other 2 are standing at out feet. They stood for 4 or 5 minutes and I said judge are you going to put the non working time on these dogs. They got all ticked off. So they were mad at me. Mine trees for 125 we proceed to tree and other dog strikes and trees about 200 yards away. We start shining my tree and i knew they were going to minus it. Other guy says can I go handle my dog judge says i dont know. I said he has the right to handle his dog. I wanted to get him away from my tree. Needless to say a guy cant give a vote if he walks away with time remaining on a tree. Judge said its minused and i said no sir its not. Its a 1 to 1 vote. I said you can? It if you want. So trust me I know all about majority on scoring a tree.

Posted by josh on 06-11-2012 04:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
ill tell you a story from a hunt last year. 3 dog cast. We cut loose mine strikes for 100 other 2 are standing at out feet. They stood for 4 or 5 minutes and I said judge are you going to put the non working time on these dogs. They got all ticked off. So they were mad at me. Mine trees for 125 we proceed to tree and other dog strikes and trees about 200 yards away. We start shining my tree and i knew they were going to minus it. Other guy says can I go handle my dog judge says i dont know. I said he has the right to handle his dog. I wanted to get him away from my tree. Needless to say a guy cant give a vote if he walks away with time remaining on a tree. Judge said its minused and i said no sir its not. Its a 1 to 1 vote. I said you can? It if you want. So trust me I know all about majority on scoring a tree.

Yup, I can see why you are so in favor of the countdown also....Nothing like outhandling the other guys by removing the accountability of your dog making a slick.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-11-2012 04:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
Yup, I can see why you are so in favor of the countdown also....Nothing like outhandling the other guys by removing the accountability of your dog making a slick.

Well see josh here's the thing. They were already mad for me saying to start the time on those dogs. There was a squirrels nest up in my tree, slick? Maybe but I dont know about how they do things your way but nests get circled right or wrong everytime. Unless the nest is just flat easy to see through. Countdown has nothing to do with out handling anyone. You even suggesting that tells me all I need to know. Its about the best dog winning josh.

Posted by groworg1 on 06-11-2012 05:16 PM:

hoserman1 is a poorsport ! just read the unsportsman like comments he makes !

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-11-2012 05:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
hoserman1 is a poorsport ! just read the unsportsman like comments he makes !

Posted by truly on 06-11-2012 06:05 PM:

In our situation the dogs were close enough that wandering around looking for the rest of the cast and hollering worked.
However,
cell phones can not be used during hunt,
garmins can not be used during the hunt,
very few folks have other devices [like backtracker] that would do any good finding a dog that is deep in the country and not barking,
while a compass is helpful in giving general direction, often you can not walk in a straight line towards where a dog was- swamps, lakes, rivers, bluffs, dense thickets, make finding a dog that is deep in the country but not barking nearly impossible.
hollering often can not be heard as far as one thinks.

So for those who say that a 2 can not be run, or that an hour can not be run:
what do you do if you can not find the dog that has been handled at the tree? dogs these days like to get deep. it is easy to think you know the general whereabouts of a dog. often when you get to one that is barking you find that you are in a very different part of the woods than you thought.
A smart handler will let his dog keep barking to guide the rest of the cast there. But UKC rules don't require handlers to be smart. Or do they? If a handler goes deep and ties his dog and hushes it to save it's voice/energy, how long do you search for it? I definitely understand that there are times that a dog is deep that you can hear it and other when you can not. I am not for putting the two on a dog just because it is temporarily out of hearing. I am talking about a situation where the dog has gone totally silent and you have no clue where it is.
It is easy to say you are going to go find it, but in reality who is going to spend over an hour searching?

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Posted by josh on 06-11-2012 06:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
You even suggesting that tells me all I need to know. Its about the best dog winning josh.

Yea, Im sure it is always about the best dog winning......As long as its yours.

Ben, We had a cast at zones once where 2 dogs split at the end of the hunt. We tied both and scored one tree, in the interum the other tied dog completely hushed. We spent at least 30 minnutes looking...

I remember seeing Todd comment on a similar situation here, If I remember correctly you pretty much look for the dog till you find it.

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Posted by truly on 06-11-2012 07:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
Yea, Im sure it is always about the best dog winning......As long as its yours.

Ben, We had a cast at zones once where 2 dogs split at the end of the hunt. We tied both and scored one tree, in the interum the other tied dog completely hushed. We spent at least 30 minnutes looking...

I remember seeing Todd comment on a similar situation here, If I remember correctly you pretty much look for the dog till you find it.

So in that situation why would the "hour" not apply? "look til you find it could mean til after deadline! If you have only an hour to find a dog that is loose on timeout, then why would you have more to find one that is handled?

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Posted by JiM on 06-11-2012 07:56 PM:

Truly, the reason you cannot apply the hour rule is because that rule only applies to timeout situations.
You look till you the find the dog because the tree must be scored and there is no other rule to apply. If that is until deadline, then you go back with a dead cast.
You cannot makeup rules because you need one for some unique situation. You are stuck with the ones that are on the back of the card.

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Posted by runnin rebels on 06-11-2012 08:09 PM:

here is a cast burner

I always train my dog to hush when tied, I don't like loosing my hearing while I shine...save the dog's energy... nuisance to the homeowner sleeping... whatever.

Now I got an independant dog and when I tie him and I return to shine the others tree I have no Idea where he is.

Sorry guys come on and lets look for my dog while we burn the hunt time and miss deadline.

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Posted by patches9452 on 06-12-2012 12:04 AM:

why can you not use a cell phone... the rule says you cant use them pertaining to scores but can use them if oked by the judge for something like this i would think

Posted by john Duemmer on 06-12-2012 12:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
why can you not use a cell phone... the rule says you cant use them pertaining to scores but can use them if oked by the judge for something like this i would think

I havent seen UKC say that a cell phone cant be used between cast members. I have done it in the past to round up a guy that had to retrive his dog during timeout to pick him up on the other side of a block. Just told him to call when he hit the road and we would drive around to get him.

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Posted by patches9452 on 06-12-2012 12:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I havent seen UKC say that a cell phone cant be used between cast members. I have done it in the past to round up a guy that had to retrive his dog during timeout to pick him up on the other side of a block. Just told him to call when he hit the road and we would drive around to get him.

thats right you just cant use it pertaining to scores

Posted by truly on 06-12-2012 04:28 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
why can you not use a cell phone... the rule says you cant use them pertaining to scores but can use them if oked by the judge for something like this i would think

I think most are worried about getting accused and scratched/barred for cell phone use. Seems like most casts I am on now they just leave them behind in their vehicle.

I can't wait for this issue to come up at a big hunt. Imagine Thursday night at the UKC world finals. You have made it to the top 100 and your dog is clicking. It is halfway through the two hours. Dogs get split 4 ways. As there are two judges on Thursday night one goes to score dog A, the other judge to score dog B, then they will meet at dog C and after that they will hike up the valley to old "deep and lonely" who can only faintly be heard way off yonder. Judges get three dogs scored, and now can't hear old "deep and lonely". So they trek half mile back to where they could hear him last. Still can't hear him. The guide says that where that dog sounded like he was, that he could actually be up any of three valleys that fork off the main valley. And once you commit to going up one of the valleys you will not be able to hear up the others. And furthermore he might be up over top of the ridge, at which point you won't be able to hear him til you reach the top of the ridge. But guide says, this here is tricky country. Only way to find that dog is if he is barking. Because it is clearly going to take over 15 minutes between scoring trees judge has called time. Cast members note that due to 2 a.m. deadine [standard Thursday deadline] and all of the split trees that cast will be lucky to use up the hour and finish the hunt anyhow. Much less chance if they spend all night looking for old "deep and lonely". Turns out the handler of old "deep and lonely" was making good progress getting to his dog, took the right fork at the 2nd valley and was near him when the dog mysteriously hushed. He didn't know that old "deep and lonely" was in some friendly old coonhunters back yard and who decided he had enough and brought him in the barn and called the owners cell phone. Which was out of coverage. Handler has no clue what to do. Thinks about calling with his cell, but notes that it is out of coverage. Knows he could never find his way back to trucks within the hour. cast has no clue where to go. no time to waste.

All those of you saying you can't run a 2 on a dog treed that may or may not be handled, or an hour on a dog that was declared treed but has gone quiet and their handler has disappeared, I ask of you, what ya' gonna do now?

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Posted by groworg1 on 06-12-2012 04:47 AM:

dead cast thats what ! if guy's keep breeding and training these independent dogs that will not pack or back they get what they got comming ! live by the sword die by the sword

Posted by truly on 06-12-2012 05:40 AM:

4. Points will be minus:
[f] After a dog is declared treed, at least one of the dogs declared treed must bark at least once every two minutes UNTIL CAST ARRIVES AT THE TREE, or be minused. If no dog barks in two minutes, tree declared open.

The cast has not arrived at the tree until the whole cast has arrived. It does not say "until handler arrives" or "until dog is handled at tree".

6. Dogs will be scratched:
[j] For delaying completion of cast for one hour after time out is called in accordance with Rule 8.
8. Timeouts:
[i]Time out may be called to go from one split to another if all dogs are declared treed and more than fifteen minutes is required to travel between trees....

Sorry gang, unless I see otherwise from UKC, if I am judging and only a cast member, not the whole cast or enough of it to score the tree, has arrived at the tree, I will run a two.
And unless UKC states otherwise, if we are on timeout between scoring trees, and we can not hear a dog that we should be able to hear, I will ask for the hour to be started after the two is up.

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