UKC Forums - spider eye = plus points

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-- spider eye = plus points (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=507876)

Posted by trackntreeman on 06-12-2012 09:43 PM:

if you all look on here allen/ukc just posted a thread of the new updated moh card that is to be read before all casts are sent out to hunt and it clearly states all hunting members of the cast are voting members and if it cant be settled by all parties then a ? is to be put on card and brought back to club , SO A 3-1 VOTE IS NOT A DONE DEAL IF THE 1 ISNT HAPPY WITH THE VOTE . it probaly wont get overturned and is probaly useless but at least you spoke your mind in my opinion .

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Posted by LostHeritageKennel on 06-12-2012 09:49 PM:

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

-Benjamin Franklin

Best analogy that could be used for this situation!

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Posted by kyblackdogman on 06-13-2012 12:51 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by LostHeritageKennel
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

-Benjamin Franklin

Best analogy that could be used for this situation!

thats a good one

Posted by Enoch Cottle on 06-13-2012 08:59 AM:

RULES ONE WAY OR THE OTHER

why is it when people make suggestions about ukc having panels to help with a question certain ones gets there rumps on there shoulders who cares were it comes from if it works IT WORKS PLANE AND SIMPLE

Posted by Robert Johnson on 06-13-2012 12:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JustinM
Sadly, you are misinformed, the taking the panel back out will keep more folks honest than barring of an innocence individual. There are times guys might take a good screwing and there is nothing a guy can do per the rules but taking a panel back is one rule that helps prevent it.

there is no mis information in what i said. It came straight from the chief horses mouth. the possibilty of being barred is absolute. IN FACT: the owner of the other kc stated that when a panel is taken back to the woods to score a tree, someone IS GETTING BARRED. plain and simple..i have spoken nothing but the truth, and you may try to twist it to suit your needs if you wish. I'll not argue with you on here, but should you want to debate it further, my number is listed. By that, bash me ear to ear, not on here where the truly brave roam, when they have help.

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Posted by StrawberryMt on 06-13-2012 01:16 PM:

Robert, as a pkc national association director, I need to say that you are still misinformed. The way it works is that if a panel is taken back out and it is found to be blatant that someone scored something wrong or the question was just someone wanting to stir up trouble,then misconduct charges will be brought up. However,if it is just found to be a difference of opinion on a clearly questionable call no misconduct charges will be leveled.
Works good in stopping shenanigans.

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 06-13-2012 02:40 PM:

Well Travis, that seems to be problem all over the organization. The national directors will say one thing, the ops diirector a varied version, and still another from the owner. I have no problems with the kc, other than its rules are interputed differently byb its own staff and ruler makers. Now i do take a little offense in you telling me i am mis-informed, when it was said to me, in almost exact words byt the owner, and one of the retired national folk. Do it anyway you want, but the panel going to a tree to score is a joke, and really has no place in any rulebook, for reasons already stated in my post. Most wild animals will have left the area, once the threat has left, for obvious reasons. Call it what you will, but it still makes no sense. As stated, i stand firm. Should you want to talk, call me, the number is there for multitudes.

Posted by StrawberryMt on 06-13-2012 03:28 PM:

Robert, I am not gonna call you,just will post rule 4F out of the bluebook and say that maybe misinformed should be changed to ypu misunderstood.
4F. PANEL RETURNING TO A TREE- In order for this option to be exercised the tree must be questioned at the time of scoring to be brought before a Question Panel. If the questioning cast member does not agree with the panels ruling at the club, he/she may request that the panel return to the woods to view the tree by placing a $100 deposit with the panel chairman. If the panel inspecting the tree finds in favor of the questioning handler(s),the scorecard will be changed and the $100 will be refunded. If not,the original score will stand and the deposit will be forfeited.If the panel inspecting the tree finds this to be a mere difference of opinion with no wrong doing, disciplinary charges will not be filed. However, if the panel inspecting the tree,unanimously determines there to be blatant and intentional wrongdoing, handler(s) will be charged with handler misconduct and will be required to serve a one (1) year suspension. Additionally each handler(s) will be assessed a fine of $250,which must be paid before suspension period begins. All forfeited deposits and fine money in these cases will go directly to the pkc youth programs escrow account.

Seems to me the ones who would oppose this option might be worried about some of the trees they have been circling or minusing depending on what their dog did.So Robert I am not saying Roger Dale didn't say something about a handler or handlers getting suspended but do doubt he said that in ALL situations someone was getting barred.A person would be crazy to put his $100 up thinking a coon would still be in a tree when a panel got back.The option is more meant for trees getting minused or circled when they clearly should be scored didifferently.My number is in my signature as well if you still don't understand.

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 06-13-2012 05:14 PM:

i understand very well, and you are the only person ever to answer in saying someone might not get barred. You see, as explained by the owner and a staffer, and yes they are higher up on your food chain over there, they clearly stated to me that the panel going back out to score wasn't where the barring came in. As, in their own words, the barring would be for misconduct, in going so far to have to get a panel out there. it may or may not be the person questioning, but someone on the cast was getting barred. plain and simple, i can not say it any clearer than that. It was said to me as stated. You see the rules, are about as clear as mud. Yes, the rule you quoted is clearer now, in terms of how its written, and some of that is thanks to folks like myself that will question and not be the staus qoe click guy. I questioned it and both times, it was said it needed clearification. i guess the way its written now is better, but in your own words, most plus coons would be gone by the time you could get back. why would you question anyway? with that said, what good is a panel? i have seen more panels mess up the rules than any one knowledgable man or woman. Panels don't have to pass atest to become licensed, and they can and do live by past rulebooks or just the good ole boy system. That holds true for any panel in any KC. this one included. its a joke in its best form. Sure, you money guys can just throw them 100.00 bills out like candy and get whatever you want if you don't agree with the first panel..while i do and will hunt in the place to be at times, i don't trust that anyone can clearly know the rules all the time..i don't. Problem is there is nothing to base any rule finding anywhere on. There is no OFFICAL INTERPUTATION booklet or otherwise to go on. NO SIR. I have seen the working of panels in big hunts, as well as some of the National Directors in action. I really don't need that, but i will honestly say i do hope they barr me one day for doing what the rules say i have a right to do, but unwritten, and unknowingly committed a crime in the eyes of the panel, and get disciplined. Yep...Won't be a good day to be in the place to be for anyone then. that part would be a given, but then i have told your staffers too. enough with you, you're to smart for me. I'm just a poor old country boy down here in the south. we'll keep our toys the way they are and you can have yours. we aren't greedy. why should we change to be like you? panels...that something we put up around our hog pens.

Posted by JiM on 06-13-2012 05:37 PM:

Nobody ever talks about the practical impact of taking a panel back out to the tree. You do it in UKC and the whole hunt suffers for it. Our club had a 3:00am deadline for both nights of our UKC hunts last weekend. We sent casts as far as 40 miles to hunt. That's nearly an hour driving to the woods and an hour back. The last cast comes in at 2:30 and takes a panel back out to a tree. That's a 2 hour round. Till they come back and then hand out awards, nobody's going home before 5:00am. Sorry, but it ain't worth all that. PKC has their rules, UKC has HONOR RULES. Vote the tree and move on.

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 06-13-2012 05:41 PM:

Jim, a panel went back out to a tree in UKC?

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-13-2012 05:44 PM:

Jim, I will say having a pannel in some circumstances is a very good thing. Its amazing how quickly someone will vote honestly as soon as the words im bringing a pannel out here are said. Very rarely does it even come to that. Just the presence of ha ing it in place would work great in my oppinion.

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Posted by JiM on 06-13-2012 05:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
Jim, a panel went back out to a tree in UKC?

NO!!!!
I was speaking hypothetically.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 06-13-2012 06:01 PM:

ok..just had me wondering..

Posted by StrawberryMt on 06-13-2012 06:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
Jim, I will say having a pannel in some circumstances is a very good thing. Its amazing how quickly someone will vote honestly as soon as the words im bringing a pannel out here are said. Very rarely does it even come to that. Just the presence of ha ing it in place would work great in my oppinion.

Thats what I am saying too.

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Posted by LostHeritageKennel on 06-13-2012 07:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
Jim, I will say having a pannel in some circumstances is a very good thing. Its amazing how quickly someone will vote honestly as soon as the words im bringing a pannel out here are said. Very rarely does it even come to that. Just the presence of ha ing it in place would work great in my oppinion.

My thoughts exactly

Posted by JiM on 06-13-2012 07:51 PM:

Well, I don't play poker so I'm not much of a bluffer.

Posted by LostHeritageKennel on 06-13-2012 08:07 PM:

Didn't say I wouldn't follow through...just saying that mentioning bringing a panel back will do more to improve the situation immediately.

Posted by JiM on 06-13-2012 08:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LostHeritageKennel
Didn't say I wouldn't follow through...just saying that mentioning bringing a panel back will do more to improve the situation immediately.

I understand that but here's the thing. Either you are bluffing OR..... you are prepared to make every cast winner wait till 5:00am to see this thing settled. Our club would quit putting on UKC hunts before they'd accept that.

Posted by LostHeritageKennel on 06-13-2012 09:28 PM:

A lot of blind people at your club? If not this wouldn't be a problem.

Posted by Enoch Cottle on 06-15-2012 02:39 AM:

I agree with that statement if everyone would do what there suppose to do we wouldnt be having this conversation.

Posted by smokin-1-mo on 06-15-2012 07:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by LostHeritageKennel
I haven't heard of many people getting barred in the other KC for this. The threat of people getting barred does more to help the situation immediately than the actual barring itself.

ROBERT KNOWS IT ALL.....DIDNT YOU READ HIS LAST SENTANCE IT HIS KENNEL CLUB..HEY ROBERT WHERE DO YOU THINK UKC GOT THE HUNT DIRECTOR FORMAT WITH THE PANAL HERING THE QUESTIONS....THATS RIGHT..YOU BETTER GET ON THE BUS OUR YOU WILL BE LEFT BEHIND THINGS ARE CHANGING THERE IS NO NEED FOR YOU MASTER OF HOUNDS,UNLESS YOU CAN MAKE COFFEE......

Posted by Robert Johnson on 06-15-2012 12:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by smokin-1-mo
ROBERT KNOWS IT ALL.....DIDNT YOU READ HIS LAST SENTANCE IT HIS KENNEL CLUB..HEY ROBERT WHERE DO YOU THINK UKC GOT THE HUNT DIRECTOR FORMAT WITH THE PANAL HERING THE QUESTIONS....THATS RIGHT..YOU BETTER GET ON THE BUS OUR YOU WILL BE LEFT BEHIND THINGS ARE CHANGING THERE IS NO NEED FOR YOU MASTER OF HOUNDS,UNLESS YOU CAN MAKE COFFEE......

I do appreciate the fact that you put so much confidence in my knowledge. I know full well where it came from. It was an attempt by the uKC to help struggling clubs with their financial positions, due to the fact that some MOH's were money hungry. Had nothing to do with a panel being better versed or otherwise. It amazes me how much you fellows can read into something, when in fact it is just as it was stated, and didn't need any of your comments or anyone else's added to it to make it better or sound otherwise. I simply stated the QUOTE as it was told to me. I don't care if you believe it or not, but it is 100% fact! Thats the problem i have with most of the other kc fellows that post on here. You twist any cooment to suit the way you want it and try to make the other kc the place to be for us all. The real facts are in the pudding. why is it that they will not publish an advisor type booklet to give an offical stance on the rules? I know the reason, and you do too. If it was to become published, the panels would have only one option in their judgements, and they could ensure the buddy would get the decision. Yes, i have seen some pretty questionable decisions in my day. Oh yeah. Roger Dale told me in an email 3 years ago he would like to see just such a booklet become fact. I guess the owner let the National Directors change his mind again. I have said it amny times before and will once more for those of you who are thick headed and hard of hearing. I hunt all the registiries! Some are fun to hunt. Some are a pain. I like and enjoy the differences in registires. I also think if i want to have a panel hear a question, i'll hunt PKC. I do know for a fact, it is very very hard to get anyone from PKC to answer a question straight up, without another staffer answering the same question with a different twist. That said, simply put aan advisor type book stops the guess work. Now, for the know it alls of the boradd, beat this up, but the fact is still fact. You have your opinions and i have mine. If you want it to get personal, you are messing with the wrong guy. another simple fact.

Posted by StrawberryMt on 06-15-2012 02:33 PM:

Robert just relax. No one but you has said pkc is the place to be. I really don't think the ukc board is the place to lobby pkc for an "Advisor".The pkc board is probably where that arguement should be.I, also enjoy the differences as well. I just said on the post about a tree countdown that I opposed it for ukc. The being able to take a panel back out option was brought up as a way to curb some of the blatant wrong scoring of trees. Now that it costs another $100 to take a panel back out it seems to me that it only gets excercised in cases were someone is dang sure they were wronged. It was only a suggestion and not one person that has responded in favor has insulted ukc for not having it.

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 06-15-2012 03:27 PM:

i'm not doing any lobbying Travis. I really could care less, I have only stated facts as presented to me, by the place to be staffers. As i said, the lobbying was done to the owner himself, on the phone, and through email. As for relaxing, i am relaxed. you are the one who "doubted" the truth in what i said. Oh i have been called a know it all before also, and will be again. I'm a big boy and can take most anything that is dished out, but i do not to and won't be called a liar by anyone with out rebuke. WHAT I STATED WAS FACT AS TOLD. By the way, the PKC board is not the place to get anything done. Say something that the staffers don't like, you get it blocked, they send you a nasty little email, and threaten your membership. Its a ghestopo over there. Ask Engle. His mojo hunt didn't benfit them so it was deleted. Well enuff of this stuff. I'm done with this thread. Might is made, and yes you are right, i did say the place to be, but that was a joke also, and still is as far as being able to use a board you must pay to get on to make a needed point. I'll call you sometime and we can chat. Truley a gentlemen's conversation, no bashing, or otherwise.

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