UKC Forums - scoring ? #2

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-- scoring ? #2 (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=502422)

Posted by Dan Dogs on 05-12-2012 07:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LoggyBayouBlues
Rule 4(k)
Any dogs declared treed after five minutes expires and tree is closed; call will be accepted as a split tree. If dog is on closed tree when judge arrives, tree points will be minused. Strike points scored in accordance with 4(d)
(1) Dog B 200-
(2) Dog B 125- 75 circled
(3) Dog B 200-

scenario #3, why would you minus the strike points? there was no coon!

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Posted by Rip on 05-12-2012 08:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
scenario #3, why would you minus the strike points? there was no coon!

"4(g) Dogs treeing, but not declared treed, when
Judge arrives, will be minused on tree points on
“off” game or slick tree. Points will be dtermined by
next available position in the case of one dog, or
split available tree points in the case of two or more
dogs. Dogs shut out on strike on slick tree or “off”
game will receive minus tree points only."

This rule means that dogs treeing but not declared treed at an off game or slick tree have both their strike and tree minused, and they are even assigned tree points if not declared treed and minused.

Now you throw in the new rule that says if a dog is declared treed after the 5 the dog is automatically recorded as "split" and is minused it's tree points and then it's strike is subject to seeing or not seeing a coon. That would then set up a situation where if someone has alot of strike points they could intentionally wait the 5, declare their dog "split" by treeing it and then benifitting by getting their strike circled (say you have 100 strike and 2nd tree is available you would just take 125 minus on that possum instead of 175). It would turn a penalty for trying to tree a dog on a closed tree into a benifit if it was slick or off game.

So you can't have it both ways. Either you have to give the dog a double dose in this situation by saying that since he was officially declared split he's minused for leaving his split tree then subjected to rule 4g and gets minused strike and assigned tree and minused those.

If you say 4g doesn't apply in this situation because the dog was declared treed then you would have no choice but to minus his tree and then CIRCLE his strike because if 4g doesn't apply then you have to see a coon to minus the dog.

That's why I think 4g has to apply.

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Posted by WEBBER on 05-14-2012 01:29 PM:

ttt

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 05-14-2012 02:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
I think you have to follow the rules regardless and since when being treed after the 5 the dog was "officially" declared split then he would have to take the double medicine if found treed under the tree with the slick or off game and eat those assigned minus points too.

That's the way I read it.

UKC may not see it that way and I fully understand the logic, that dog was not "treeing but not declared treed", he was declared treed at another tree but I think if you are going to have the rule where someone that trees after the 5 is officially declaring a split tree then you have to score that dog just like he was infact split.

Ouch that would hurt.

Rip has it correct. It's a big "ouch". But the fact remains, you score the dog as if it left it's split tree. Then score accordingly on the closed tree as a dog treeing but not declared treed when judge arrived. Huge error on the part of the handler when declaring their dog treed after a tree has been closed unless the dog is "obviously" split. Remember, previous to this rule it was left up to the judge to determine whether or not the dog was split? In cases where it was not obvious he would not accept the tree call. Not the case anymore when it comes to handlers treeing their dogs after a tree has been closed. They are put on the card as split and treated that way regardless. Personally, I've never liked this rule because a dog is subject to getting penciled for something it may never have done. But...this is what was proposed and passed. Now we live with it.

Regardless, I will never undertsand why any handler would even think about calling their dog treed, after a tree has been closed, unless it is very obvious the dog is split, when you consider they could very easily just wait to call the dog after arriving at the closed tree and see the dog is not there.

Posted by JiM on 05-14-2012 04:19 PM:

Thanks Allen, Another lesson learned.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 05-14-2012 05:37 PM:

What happens if a dog hasn't been struck or treed but when you get to the tree It is there in the area but not treeing?

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Posted by patches9452 on 05-14-2012 05:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
What happens if a dog hasn't been struck or treed but when you get to the tree It is there in the area but not treeing?

nothing

Posted by Dan Dogs on 05-14-2012 09:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Rip has it correct. It's a big "ouch". But the fact remains, you score the dog as if it left it's split tree. Then score accordingly on the closed tree as a dog treeing but not declared treed when judge arrived. Huge error on the part of the handler when declaring their dog treed after a tree has been closed unless the dog is "obviously" split. Remember, previous to this rule it was left up to the judge to determine whether or not the dog was split? In cases where it was not obvious he would not accept the tree call. Not the case anymore when it comes to handlers treeing their dogs after a tree has been closed. They are put on the card as split and treated that way regardless. Personally, I've never liked this rule because a dog is subject to getting penciled for something it may never have done. But...this is what was proposed and passed. Now we live with it.

Regardless, I will never undertsand why any handler would even think about calling their dog treed, after a tree has been closed, unless it is very obvious the dog is split, when you consider they could very easily just wait to call the dog after arriving at the closed tree and see the dog is not there.

what i have seen is people seem to think the five is not up on a split but in reality once all dogs are treed there is no longer a 5 min rule. but there dog moves and they think they can still get a piece of the other tree..

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 05-15-2012 12:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
What happens if a dog hasn't been struck or treed but when you get to the tree It is there in the area but not treeing?

They get warned for not calling their dog.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 05-15-2012 02:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
They get warned for not calling their dog.

But if it hasn't opened on track or tree they can't strike or tree it in.

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 05-15-2012 04:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
But if it hasn't opened on track or tree they can't strike or tree it in.

Yes that is true. It is hard to strike or tree one that hasn't opened. But if it has and wasn't called for fear of minus than you get what I mentioned above.

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Posted by walkerman411 on 09-07-2012 03:46 AM:

after 5

if you tree after the five it is a separate tree regardless

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