UKC Forums - Starting the dog with "too much tree"

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Posted by odg on 04-23-2012 11:49 PM:

i dont realy think it is a nose problem they pull up short when track is hot and coon is close dog gets excited knows coon is close and grabs a tree

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odg

Posted by jackbob42 on 04-23-2012 11:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by toe cutter
....
BUT NO PUP IS BORN WITH ANY CONCEPT OF WHAT A TREE IS. ONLY THE INSTINCT TO TREE BARK FOR WHAT EVER THEY WANT BAD ENOUGH........

So , what is it , that they want so bad , that is up an empty tree?
Don't think I've ever seen a dog slick on a power pole , car , etc.

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Posted by Chiggers on 04-24-2012 12:20 AM:

Re: Starting the dog with "too much tree"

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh
A lot of times excessive slick treeing is blamed partially on too much tree bred in and other times it is blamed on trainer error. Likely it is a combination of both.

So in this day and age of dogs with plenty of tree how does a trainer adjust his strategy to get the best out of a dog that isn't afraid to get wooded? What is too harsh punishment for a young dog treeing slick? What is good encouragement but not too much for a dog that is starting to tree coon?

Lets have a good discussion and some strategy here!!

If you have a young dog treeing too much wait a half an hour before starting to it, people go in to them too fast.

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Perry Metcalf.. Go Big Blue !

Posted by V. Cannon on 04-24-2012 01:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
I don't doubt that at all and I hope it proves to be a nice experience for you. I had one do that at 4 months old in the late '80s. I was so impressed I wasted about 8 years on that line of dogs just to realise they were so so at best.

To be honest most ( about 99 percent) dogs are just so so, we all tend to forget they are just dogs, and the things they do is just what dogs do.

No, the dog I had in mind when I made that post quit treeing before he was a year old and it was nearly a year before he started back treeing, a Jaguar killed him in the jungles down in southern Mexico back in 78

Posted by toe cutter on 04-24-2012 05:23 AM:

must be the differance right there, some dogs tree just to be hooked.
mine tree because the track goes up the tree and they can't climb.
any dog can be beat and not have the coon ,but if your dog trees just to be treeing you might as well give it the dirt nap now.
simple fact is dogs that slick tree that bad dont have the brains to learn track sense that makes them accurate tree dogs.
or they have been made tree happy by people trying to teach them to tree.
its both from breeding and in training.
it was'nt the breeding for harder louder tree dogs, it was from breeding the part of the track out called checking the tree with the intent to make them faster tree dogs. a dog that checks its trees hard will not get too many 1st trees unless it is also a independant dog. its like you cant have it both ways, fast or accurate. most fast locating tree dogs or one bark tree dogs in a crowd are usually not nearly as accurate as the dog that takes the time to make sure its got the right finish to the track.
but you guys hash it out , i'm not having that problem with mine,they are pretty good about having the coon and they also aint much on covering other dogs treed slick either. i'm seeing thats very rare these days.

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RED EAGLE MACK BRED WALKER DOGS

Posted by toe cutter on 04-24-2012 05:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
So , what is it , that they want so bad , that is up an empty tree?
Don't think I've ever seen a dog slick on a power pole , car , etc.

simple, they cant track, don't check the tree or what ever. they can't finish the track, the coons cant fly away, they had to walk,so must be the track goes on. they come up short or they're backtracking dogs that tree on the tree the coon came out of. which is much more common then most people relize.

so if a pup is born with the instinctive knowledge of what a tree is i guess then it could also be that the coon are climbing hickory and oak trees and the dog is bred for maple trees and elms.

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Randal Raper -
RED EAGLE MACK BRED WALKER DOGS

Posted by l.lyle on 04-24-2012 06:31 AM:

I have been slowly swapping over for ten years by cross breeding. I liked alot of things in my old walkers and scared to devorce and start over so I crossbred. What I did like: Strike, trail, run,run hot, Locate. It was up to me to tree him or not at that point because he would check and get covered by his doughter before he ever got back to blowing it out, which probably wasn't over 30-45 seconds to get right , but neverthe less , his daughter had a first unless I called him on the Locate. Now what I realy liked alot about him was strike, trail, trail not so great he telling me, He had a sign off bark for quiting a track that said "Ftis track" it sonded exactly like a locate but I knew betterbecause he was telling me the whole time it was a mess around track and I knew he was fixing to quit it any minute.
It is up to the handler to know the doga nad all the dogs BS.Which realy ain't BS it is the truth and I appreciate the dog giving me fair warning of it.

The day I knew he had started reverting to BS was when on a hot running track and him ahead of the race , he located and I took his word for it and in ten seconds his daughter and my other pups were hammering down.. They all blowing the top out of it. We get closer to the tree and it hard to hear over all the noise going on, but I don't hear him that good. What it is is he sneeked off a hundred yards and was treeing easy under his breath. till I got to the tree he had planted those fools on and then he would blow it out. They wanted to puull too him even. Now that was a sneacky dog. I caught him at it by keeping up with my light off and staying close. You tailgait squaters will never understand. He would plant dogs on a tree in a heartbeat and ease on off. It was so easy then for me to wear those puppies asses clean out for not checking it was un real easy. I loved that lier. He sure helped me train the dogs I got today.

He finally got senile about 10. He would hang around with all the hoopla. We would shine and I would say to my buddy in a natural tone of voice that there aint no coon in this tree and watch him out the corner of my light. It was exactly like he said to me : "OH H, I forgot, and take off and tree in 10-15 seconds with the coon up a leafless white oak instaed of a live oak grove. More puppy wearing ask kinkings though. No way around that.

Posted by V. Cannon on 04-24-2012 10:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by toe cutter
must be the differance right there, some dogs tree just to be hooked.
mine tree because the track goes up the tree and they can't climb.
any dog can be beat and not have the coon ,but if your dog trees just to be treeing you might as well give it the dirt nap now.
simple fact is dogs that slick tree that bad dont have the brains to learn track sense that makes them accurate tree dogs.
or they have been made tree happy by people trying to teach them to tree.
its both from breeding and in training.
it was'nt the breeding for harder louder tree dogs, it was from breeding the part of the track out called checking the tree with the intent to make them faster tree dogs. a dog that checks its trees hard will not get too many 1st trees unless it is also a independant dog. its like you cant have it both ways, fast or accurate. most fast locating tree dogs or one bark tree dogs in a crowd are usually not nearly as accurate as the dog that takes the time to make sure its got the right finish to the track.
but you guys hash it out , i'm not having that problem with mine,they are pretty good about having the coon and they also aint much on covering other dogs treed slick either. i'm seeing thats very rare these days.

Sounds like you're staying with the traditional kind of hounds that hunters had back in the 70s.

Posted by GA DAWG on 04-25-2012 04:45 AM:

I've started a good many pups. Spent more time doing it than I should have. That being said. Not the first one of them was a slick treeing monster when first starting to tree!!! Some may have learned it from older hounds. Im sure I caused some of it by loving them up on trees, shooting to many coon to em and whatever else you can think of. I try and be more careful now.

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Posted by V. Cannon on 04-25-2012 05:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
I've started a good many pups. Spent more time doing it than I should have. That being said. Not the first one of them was a slick treeing monster when first starting to tree!!! Some may have learned it from older hounds. Im sure I caused some of it by loving them up on trees, shooting to many coon to em and whatever else you can think of. I try and be more careful now.

I think most tree monsters are man made, I use to start pups and hunt dogs for the public and I can honestly say I never started a pup that was a tree monster, I might look at pups different than some people do but I think a lot of the things pups do (good and bad) is because of the excitement they see from their handler. I think that pups that are handled with patience and rewarded only when when your postive they are right will learn to do the right things.

Posted by Nipp on 04-26-2012 12:47 AM:

I don't pet and praise my pups on the tree after I have found the
Coon I leash them off about 20 yards or so talk to them like
I would talk to my son for a good grade and pet their head for
A few seconds mainly I talk to them just as I would a person
My dogs don't miss many I also don't blow a squall and most of
The time with a red lense first they will look if I have not found him with
A couple of minutes I will take lense off I have found coons
Are not that hard to find if they are there

Posted by Nipp on 04-26-2012 01:00 AM:

Most dogs aim to please so when they see you all happy and rubbing
Them telling him to talk to em they will be looking to pleae you again
And pull up short that why I walk off the tree before I pet and talk to
Them if they pull up short I don't talk to him and don't really walk
Away from tree and cut them right there don't let him back on that tree
And don't walk away until he picks track back up

Posted by Dirtdevil on 04-26-2012 01:00 AM:

There's as many reasons for a dog messing up as there is dogs that mess up ....

But yeah , some dogs are born with an itch to tree ... they don't care about coon , scent or being petted .. they just love to throw back and bark ...

Like a cowdog that herds the kids or puts the laying hens in a corner while you're at work and keeps them there til' they both have heat strokes ... you breed dogs long enough for a trait and they come out of the womb with OCD-like behavior for that trait.

That kind of treedog isn't the handlers fault nor will it ever be a coondog ....

I never knew what was wrong with wanting dogs that just treed or bayed what they ran ... not sure where this " track" or " tree" comes from ... they are either coon savvy or not ... those terms are just fancy ways of saving a cull or something ...

Posted by l.lyle on 04-26-2012 04:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dirtdevil
There's as many reasons for a dog messing up as there is dogs that mess up ....

But yeah , some dogs are born with an itch to tree ... they don't care about coon , scent or being petted .. they just love to throw back and bark ...

Like a cowdog that herds the kids or puts the laying hens in a corner while you're at work and keeps them there til' they both have heat strokes ... you breed dogs long enough for a trait and they come out of the womb with OCD-like behavior for that trait.

That kind of treedog isn't the handlers fault nor will it ever be a coondog ....

I never knew what was wrong with wanting dogs that just treed or bayed what they ran ... not sure where this " track" or " tree" comes from ... they are either coon savvy or not ... those terms are just fancy ways of saving a cull or something ...

Truer words never spoken about coondogs. edit With herders being a fine example.

And here's one more edit; That 'saving a cull or something" that "something" is bragging up a little know nothing puppy yacking at a tree before it can run. Then to convince people that even if their pup is beating the other dogs to the tree half the time , and not treeing till it is 15-18 months old, thenthey have a dud and need to get in on this. Happened to me in the late 80's when it was a New thing . Now it is OLD OLD OLD. I don't cast a sideways glance at a lab fetching a sock at six weeks nor a pup blowing it out at six months. But that is just me. Ya'll have fun playing with (now now, lets not be crude) your puppy.

Posted by skeets on 04-26-2012 08:54 AM:

a pup slick treeing aint never a good sign i dont think. i believe most of that is bred in a dog unless they have been showed alot of trap coons. i know a pup will miss some but it shouldnt be to often cause all they will run most the time are the hot tracks. as a dog gets older they will start tackling a tougher track, i never pull my dog off a tough track cause thats the only way there going to learn what they can handle and what they cant. around here if a dog can only run a hot track your not going to see many coons cause they aint many. i hunted with a dog that would tree every time he saw a hunting light thru the woods and the guy that owned him would go to him and pet him up just like there was a coon in the tree. i asked him one time why you petting your dog for treeing slick? he said his dog just wants a coon so bad lol.

Posted by l.lyle on 04-26-2012 09:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by skeets
a pup slick treeing aint never a good sign i dont think. i believe most of that is bred in a dog unless they have been showed alot of trap coons. i know a pup will miss some but it shouldnt be to often cause all they will run most the time are the hot tracks. as a dog gets older they will start tackling a tougher track, i never pull my dog off a tough track cause thats the only way there going to learn what they can handle and what they cant. around here if a dog can only run a hot track your not going to see many coons cause they aint many. i hunted with a dog that would tree every time he saw a hunting light thru the woods and the guy that owned him would go to him and pet him up just like there was a coon in the tree. i asked him one time why you petting your dog for treeing slick? he said his dog just wants a coon so bad lol.

You are nicer than me. I could not have resisted the temptation to ask him,"Then why don't he go get under one?"

Posted by skeets on 04-26-2012 09:14 AM:

lol lyle the guy was a brick shy of a load and was hotheaded but he won alot of hunts with that ole dog some how.lol

Posted by Glenn Wells on 04-26-2012 09:23 AM:

I really dont think you can have too much tree bred in, now you can have brains bred out, there may be the problem. I would rather fool with a pup that started treeing before ever opening on the first track, at least you know it stops and pretty good bet the trail will come along with time.

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UKC MOH

Posted by l.lyle on 04-26-2012 09:28 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Wells
I really dont hink you can have too much tree bred in, now you can have brains bred out, there may be the problem. I would rather fool with a pup that started treeing before ever opening on the first track, at least you know it stops and pretty good bet the trail will come along with time.

The tree will come along with time is the way I see it but to each his own. I have wasted 8 years starting 26 years ago on what you are talking about.

Lets see 1988 to 1994 how ever the math works Can I take a guess at the bloodline?

Posted by Glenn Wells on 04-26-2012 09:59 AM:

How about lot of Banjo with a little Finley River to keep it sweet ! You have to keep it smart, to use all the tools that came with it. You asked about the old dog you started with, Lipper had that blood line, came out of Bobby Shives dogs. So guess there are a few dogs still packing little strands here and there.

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UKC MOH

Posted by l.lyle on 04-26-2012 10:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Wells
How about lot of Banjo with a little Finley River to keep it sweet ! You have to keep it smart, to use all the tools that came with it. You asked about the old dog you started with, Lipper had that blood line, came out of Bobby Shives dogs. So guess there are a few dogs still packing little strands here and there.

I had no Idea they were doing that now too. FR is what was trackdogs first and later learned to tree. My guess is it was D ---neys on the bottom side of Jr. tree bred.

Posted by Glenn Wells on 04-26-2012 11:04 AM:

Yep l.lyle it's still working, folks don't realize it though. They look at the 3 generation, thinking it's the dog, when its the lines coming into those 2 dogs. You can see it in the 6 or more generation pedigrees, gives a map on direction to go, without having to do a complete outcross to keep it just right.

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UKC MOH

Posted by l.lyle on 04-27-2012 01:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Carl Fox
I have seen many Dohoney'S Boone pups tree before they ever ran a track in fact a Buddy and i had two litter mates that made seven trees one nite when they were only 7 months old with nothing in not one tree my Buddy's dog made a pretty decent dog but his or mine never did have much hunt power but really looked good on those slick trees.lol.

That was it . I was just trying to not call names. I shake my head every time I think of how many years I wasted on them before I had enough. But it was a New Thing back then. I had so much enough I finally swapped breeds , not just lines. I don't recall them so much slick as much as what you said about lack of hunt power when they got mature.

In an above post I talked about crossbreeding but this was after I had got rid of that line altogther. Then I went to Walkers that couldn't seem to ever get struck till they were all but out of hearing and it didn't take them but a minute to get that far. No wonder I swapped.

Posted by walker1978 on 04-27-2012 01:39 AM:

Well here is my 2 cents. I'm no expert at all but where I come from we call em slick treeing idiots. I don't think a dog can have to much tree. A lot of that comes from guys making them that way. If they tree just to tree I think its cause they think that is what you want them to do all the time. I've seen a lot of guys let there pup tree knowing that no coon was up there. They just say. Let em tree its good for them to wanna tree. Well not me if there gonna tree it better be because something is up there or is close that maybe they think its up there.

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 04-27-2012 01:48 AM:

Re: Treeing

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
Its been my experience that young dogs just starting out dont miss very often. Its when they get a little age is when they start to miss.

around here there just unfinished track some just need less scent
on a tree than others,a good track dog dont need to check he knows
where it is

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