UKC Forums - nite ch hunt ?

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 04-16-2012 03:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
If just being there doesn't constitute a scratch then you would have to see a dog run a deer before you can scratch it and we all know that is not the way the rule reads. It is the judges decision. Just as in this case the judge thought it constituted a scratch. I know the guy who asked the question and he knows the rules as good as anybody.

how do you know a coon didnt go threw where the deer took off
some of these old long legged cliff coons will run a mile just listen
to the stories on here.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 04-16-2012 03:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Currens Jr.
how do you know a coon didnt go threw where the deer took off
some of these old long legged cliff coons will run a mile just listen
to the stories on here.

Not the point. I know what you mean about running long legged coon. If you can scratch a dog for running a deer you don't see but you can't scratch a dog for being at a tree with a possum in it.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 04-16-2012 04:05 AM:

if the dog came from the north the possum came from the south
they have hunted the whole woods the dog hadnt said word
where do you want him at?i dont see that it matters either way
if its the 1st drop and we dropped in a possum woods

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Posted by EFranks on 04-16-2012 04:20 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Scratched.

too bad u want be able to scratch them gamecocks in a few months

Posted by Rip on 04-16-2012 04:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
Not the point. I know what you mean about running long legged coon. If you can scratch a dog for running a deer you don't see but you can't scratch a dog for being at a tree with a possum in it.

Again being AT a tree is not running, treeing or molesting off game. The dog has to do one of the three and just being in the area does not fulfill any part of the rule for scratching.

The point is we have to follow all the rules to the best of our ability. Just like you can't plus a coon after shine time you can't scratch a dog for being in the wrong place. That dog has to either run, molest or tree the off game.

You keep referring to not seeing them RUN a deer. Well the dog has done something, it is actively RUNNING the deer. It's not scratched just because the dog was there and a deer was there.

The dog MUST do something to meet the requirements for scratching, no different than the dog must fight or attempt to fight to be scratched for fighting.

You can't scratch just cause you want to. You have to have a rule to back it up and just being there doesn't fulfill the requirements of the rule.

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Posted by mauser06 on 04-16-2012 05:11 AM:

define "at the tree" ....

was it ON the tree? near the tree? how close? what was it doing??

why was it handled??? judge said to? why??

i dont care if a dog aint barking or not if it is AT a tree its guilty enough for me...to me if it is on the tree or sitting at the base of the tree its going home with the other dog....

i dont understand why the dog was handled...me thinkin it was literally AT the tree..barking or not i am sending it home...if it was not AT the tree why was it handled?? let it do what it is doing...2 things will happen...it'll go hunting or it'll tree on that tree and its going home....

i guess if the judge said it was scratched and to handle it, i can understand handling it....but, if it was not AT or ON the tree, i would question it and we'd go back to the club....

ive ran a dog that wont bark on possums....but when you walk through the woods and find a fresh dead possum and find your dog treed under a coon 10 mins later with a bloody face, well, you can guess what happens....if she finds one on the ground she'll grab it and kill it...wont bark...wont tree em...but if she can catch em they are dead...youd have to catch her in the act....which is a challenge as it takes a second or 2 and thats that and shes gone..

was the dog ever struck in??

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Posted by Rip on 04-16-2012 12:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mauser06
define "at the tree" ....

was it ON the tree? near the tree? how close? what was it doing??

why was it handled??? judge said to? why??

i dont care if a dog aint barking or not if it is AT a tree its guilty enough for me...to me if it is on the tree or sitting at the base of the tree its going home with the other dog....

i dont understand why the dog was handled...me thinkin it was literally AT the tree..barking or not i am sending it home...if it was not AT the tree why was it handled?? let it do what it is doing...2 things will happen...it'll go hunting or it'll tree on that tree and its going home....

i guess if the judge said it was scratched and to handle it, i can understand handling it....but, if it was not AT or ON the tree, i would question it and we'd go back to the club....

ive ran a dog that wont bark on possums....but when you walk through the woods and find a fresh dead possum and find your dog treed under a coon 10 mins later with a bloody face, well, you can guess what happens....if she finds one on the ground she'll grab it and kill it...wont bark...wont tree em...but if she can catch em they are dead...youd have to catch her in the act....which is a challenge as it takes a second or 2 and thats that and shes gone..

was the dog ever struck in??

All dogs at a tree MUST be leashed. You can't just "let it do what it was doing". The rules say if the dog is there you have to put a leash on it.

The Advisor is clear, to be considered treeing the dog has to be at the tree and opening. Just being at the tree isn't enough.

Are you gonna try and plus every dog that just happens to be at the tree or are you gonna only plus the dogs that are treeing?

Same here, can't scratch the dog for just being there. He has to do something BY THE RULES that gets him scratched.

To do so just because he is there is not allowed by the rules any more than plussing that possum would be allowed. I mean heck why plus the possum? You would have just as much right to plus that opssum as to minus dog that is just there.

I don't know why more can't see that violating a rule is violating a rule whether you like that rule or not. You agreed to play by that rule when you signed your dog up for the hunt.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 04-16-2012 12:41 PM:

I don't have an advisor to go by Maybe you answered it but what you gonna do to this same situation if its a coon instead of a possum?

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Posted by Rip on 04-16-2012 12:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
I don't have an advisor to go by Maybe you answered it but what you gonna do to this same situation if its a coon instead of a possum?

Then the dog will be minused his strike if he has any, which the origional post doesn't even say the dog is struck in so I don't know that the dog ever barked even once anywhere.

But he was never treed, and he never opened so the handler can't expect to get plus on a coon if it was a coon.

So if it was a coon he would either get nothing (but still be handled at the tree because that's what has to happen by the rules) or if he did have strike it would be minused for being at the closed tree.

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Posted by mrbluedog on 04-16-2012 01:49 PM:

I agree with Rip 100% . can go one better have 2 dogs in treed after 5 is up go in to tree only one dog there minus one for leaving score it big ole grinner 2nd dog that left is not scratched do not know for sure it was on same tree dog c mine never been struck in comes into check why we are arguing the scrathes and sort blows up one time without checking guess what he got me an early exit where as if he would of checked 1st then left we would of been ok

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Posted by goodtimekennel on 04-16-2012 02:03 PM:

RIP IS CORRECT

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Posted by JiM on 04-16-2012 02:16 PM:

This thread is a good example of one of the problems with the hunts today, judges don't agree with UKC's interpretation of the rules so they just substitute what they think it should be for what it is. The other problem is the number of MOH's that don't know what it is.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 04-16-2012 04:42 PM:

I wonder if he was struck in????

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Posted by mauser06 on 04-16-2012 05:24 PM:

Why would you have to handle a dog not treed???? You dont! Unless the dog is litterally AT the tree or tree AT/ON that tree...in which case he is handled and going home opening or not....

If he is simply in the area he does not need handled....i believe handling a dog out hunting is a scratch on its own...

The dog was either guilty enough to be scratched and handled or it was hunting....well....thats how it should go anyways...

I wasnt there so i dont know....but if the dog is there and not leaving he is getting sent home opening or not IMO...

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Posted by goodtimekennel on 04-16-2012 05:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mauser06
Why would you have to handle a dog not treed???? You dont! Unless the dog is litterally AT the tree or tree AT/ON that tree...in which case he is handled and going home opening or not....

If he is simply in the area he does not need handled....i believe handling a dog out hunting is a scratch on its own...

The dog was either guilty enough to be scratched and handled or it was hunting....well....thats how it should go anyways...

I wasnt there so i dont know....but if the dog is there and not leaving he is getting sent home opening or not IMO...

HAVE YOU READ THIS ENTIRE POST ? IF YOU DID THEN YOU WOULD ALREADY NO WHY THE DOG WAS HANDLED AND NOT SCRATCHED , ITS UKC RULES NOT WHAT MAUSER THINKS RULES !!

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Posted by Rip on 04-16-2012 05:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mauser06
Why would you have to handle a dog not treed???? You dont! Unless the dog is litterally AT the tree or tree AT/ON that tree...in which case he is handled and going home opening or not....

If he is simply in the area he does not need handled....i believe handling a dog out hunting is a scratch on its own...

The dog was either guilty enough to be scratched and handled or it was hunting....well....thats how it should go anyways...

I wasnt there so i dont know....but if the dog is there and not leaving he is getting sent home opening or not IMO...

And again you would be blatantly violating the rules no different than if you plussed that possum.

ALL DOGS AT THE TREE MUST BE LEASHED. What part of that rule is so hard to understand? You can NOT give him the opportunity to leave. If the dog is there it is leashed you have no choice. You as a handler have no choice either even if you don't want to leash the dog you MUST leash it. Matter of fact if you DON'T leash it your dog will be going home and the dog that was just there around that possum that wasn't molesting it will be staying in the hunt. Why? Because you violated the rules when you didn't handle the dog that was at the tree. The other dog didn't violate the rules either so it stays and the only dog going home is the one that was treeing on the possum.

You have to follow the rules, whether you agree with them or not. No exceptions for what you think is "right".

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Posted by patches9452 on 04-16-2012 05:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mrbluedog
I agree with Rip 100% . can go one better have 2 dogs in treed after 5 is up go in to tree only one dog there minus one for leaving score it big ole grinner 2nd dog that left is not scratched do not know for sure it was on same tree dog c mine never been struck in comes into check why we are arguing the scrathes and sort blows up one time without checking guess what he got me an early exit where as if he would of checked 1st then left we would of been ok

i didnt think you could scratch on off game if they came into the tree after you arrived

Posted by patches9452 on 04-16-2012 05:45 PM:

i got another question.... is there ever a time where you can score the same tree twice.... like first time you score it a coon is scored..... later in the hunt another dog trees on the scored tree coon is gone but a possum is there

Posted by Rip on 04-16-2012 06:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
i got another question.... is there ever a time where you can score the same tree twice.... like first time you score it a coon is scored..... later in the hunt another dog trees on the scored tree coon is gone but a possum is there

Nope, never. This was covered in an Advisor too. The situation was a cornfield with only one tree in the middle of it. They treed on it the first time, no leaves and the tree was minused. Then they treed on it again and a coon was on the bottom limb. Different dog, same tree.

Could not score that tree. No points for a previously scored tree period, whether they be plus, minus or circle. Don't matter. Can't score a tree twice ever.

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Posted by patches9452 on 04-16-2012 06:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Nope, never. This was covered in an Advisor too. The situation was a cornfield with only one tree in the middle of it. They treed on it the first time, no leaves and the tree was minused. Then they treed on it again and a coon was on the bottom limb. Different dog, same tree.

Could not score that tree. No points for a previously scored tree period, whether they be plus, minus or circle. Don't matter. Can't score a tree twice ever.

so you are saying you cant get scratched on it either

Posted by Rip on 04-16-2012 06:55 PM:

It says no points, not no scratch LOL.

Nt Ch is subject to scratch at any time under the authority of the judge EXCEPT when it comes in to a tree after the judge arrives (why they decided this I don't know but they did) and now they have changed it further to until the hunt is over (used to they could be scratched coming back into the clubhouse after winning the cast, now they have changed it to "until the expiration of hunt time".

The Advisor has likely covered the scratching at a previously scored tree but I honestly don't remember it.

The tree has been scored, no reason to even look in the tree. The dog would have technically arrived AFTER the judge arrived because they have already scored it but I don't know what UKC will rule on that.

That one will depend on what the Advisor says about it because I think I remember them covering it but I don't remember what they said, and they have changed that significantly over the last few years with regards to when they are subject to scratch.

My bet is since they don't allow the dog to be scratched for coming in after the judge arrives they probably won't allow it to be scratched at a previously scored tree. I can see them going both ways with it, but since they already went one way with the coming in after the judge arrives then I would bet they went that way on the previously scored tree.

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Posted by walker1978 on 04-16-2012 07:26 PM:

why is it so hard for people to understand the rules. every day on here its the same thing, one says yes and one says no. if its that hard to understand what the rules are then ukc better rewright the whole rule book. there is always someone trying to bend the rules to what they see fit. rules are rules and if you cant read what is in front of you then you shouldnt be allowed to compete. thats jmo. either way its almost funny sometimes to read all these post about what the rules are. just like when i was racing you try to bend the rules as much you can with out getting caught.

Posted by mauser06 on 04-16-2012 07:55 PM:

Rip, do you just like to argue?? My point is that dog is either at the tree and getting leashed and scratched or it is not at the tree....

Being in the area does not scratch them and a dog in the area does not need handled...common sense here...dog is either at the tree or it aint...i think we agree you just misunderstood me....

The original poster didnt answer us on what the dog in question was actually doibg or where it was actually seen....could been 50yds away seen milling around...could been standi g on the tree but not barking...

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Posted by JiM on 04-16-2012 08:23 PM:

What you can't seem to grasp is that the CAN be AT THE TREE and not be treeing in which case the dog cannot be scratched under UKC rules. Just because a dog is at the tree doesn't mean it is treeing.

Posted by goodtimekennel on 04-16-2012 08:23 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mauser06
[B]Rip, do you just like to argue?? My point is that dog is either at the tree and getting leashed and scratched or it is not at the tree....

YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT , THE DOG IS NOT SCRATCHED IN UKC RULES

YOU HAVE NO POINT

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