UKC Forums - Do we UNMINUS these points too???

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-- Do we UNMINUS these points too??? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=494903)

Posted by Randy Howard on 04-05-2012 07:47 PM:

Going back and unminus tree? 2 trees touch and dog is running back and forth?so we score as one tree? Sounds to me like dog might have just laid up one and got lucky on that senario

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Posted by JiM on 04-05-2012 07:48 PM:

Of course not John. I would simply say the dog must PICK A TREE and stick to it. Either one is plussed because they join which makes it one tree for purposes of scoring but I sure wouldn't allow a dog to run back and forth between both trees.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 04-05-2012 08:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Of course not John. I would simply say the dog must PICK A TREE and stick to it. Either one is plussed because they join which makes it one tree for purposes of scoring but I sure wouldn't allow a dog to run back and forth between both trees.

I sure agree that a dog should PICK a tree and stick but you Just cant have it both ways.. If its one tree for the purpose of scoring then its ONE tree..
any other ruling would sure seem to me to be inconsistent.

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Posted by mleck on 04-05-2012 08:32 PM:

One tree at the top is not one tree at the bottom in my opinion and I side with Jim.

two seperate dogs on two different tree trunks can be scored as one and I agree. but a dog that running back and fourth on trees that could be 30-50 feet apart should be minused even if it is one tree at the top. A dog must stay treed. With UKC allowing this movement gives power to the old myth "treeing under the canopy" if a dog is circling a tree canopy that is 40' in diameter he would be minused with me judging and the samething as for a dog bouncing back and fourth between bases of a tree that is a distance apart

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Posted by JiM on 04-05-2012 08:35 PM:

Well, I'm betting they know they screwed tha pooch on that one but they prolly figure their's no going back now.

Posted by kayapellijed390 on 04-05-2012 11:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Jim, big difference when comparing the two scenarios isn't it? (yours and trees scored as one)

When a dog is declared treed it must stay where it is being scored at until handled - tree, hole, pile or telephone pole. In your case, the declared dog left the tree and came into the cast. Minus tree points. Luckily its strike points were still live at the time it arrived with the caught coon. Plus the strike points and recast. If you don;t know what strike position is now available ask Trevor.

Seems to me like the dog brought the mountain to mohammed instead of mohammed going to the mountain. Why should a dog have to stay if he has caught the critter and is carrying it back? You wouldn't minus a dog that has bayed a big boar and during the course of the fight the fight keeps moving around. You know how it goes the coon fights then runs a few feet until a dog grabs its butt again then it turns and fights this can go on across a pretty big area. But everytime I have ever seen this happening the cast runs in and grabs collars and says plus 'em up boys. If the "Tree or the End of the Track" can be slightly mobile in that situation I don't see how it could not be in others. Seems to me like the dog is in a way carrying the tree with it. If this is scored as you say Allen then why would the dog not be minused its strike like the fellow above says. The dog did not stay where the track ended so using your same logic he quite the track and came into the cast. Just doesn't add up in my humble opinion. I would say unminus the tree then delete it the same way you would if you where walking into a dog treed in a bush and right before the dog is handled it jumps up and pulls the coon onto the ground infront of the entire cast. You would not minus those tree points you would delete them and plus the strike.

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Posted by on 04-06-2012 12:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Jim, big difference when comparing the two scenarios isn't it? (yours and trees scored as one)

When a dog is declared treed it must stay where it is being scored at until handled - tree, hole, pile or telephone pole.

In order for that coon to have left sent on both of those tree trunks then he had to get on the ground and should have been trailed to the correct tree. So what if they touch at the top. They all touch at the bottom. How about that. You said it yourself, tree, hole, pile or telephone pole. I would include trees touching at the top. They should stay on the tree "trunk" they were treed on.

Posted by patches9452 on 04-06-2012 12:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by crossbblues
okay add this in........when a dog carrying a strike position comes back into handlers. His strike points are minused. So would Dog A not get strike minused for coming back in even tho he was carrying a coon?? if you went to were the dog was and found him with dead coon......plus the strike points.......but the dog came back in basicly off track once he was minued from the tree......

how can he be minused for quiting a track.... hes carrying the track with him

Posted by kayapellijed390 on 04-06-2012 01:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
how can he be minused for quiting a track.... hes carrying the track with him

Exactly and isn't he carrying the tree or the end of the track with him as well. As my daddy would say that dog won't hunt!

Posted by Rip on 04-06-2012 01:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mleck
One tree at the top is not one tree at the bottom in my opinion and I side with Jim.

two seperate dogs on two different tree trunks can be scored as one and I agree. but a dog that running back and fourth on trees that could be 30-50 feet apart should be minused even if it is one tree at the top. A dog must stay treed. With UKC allowing this movement gives power to the old myth "treeing under the canopy" if a dog is circling a tree canopy that is 40' in diameter he would be minused with me judging and the samething as for a dog bouncing back and fourth between bases of a tree that is a distance apart

The problem with that is you would be breaking the rules by doing that if the treed were one at the top.

UKC has always maintained one tree at top one tree at bottom. If they are one then the dog hasn't left anything bouncing between the two trunks because both are the same tree.

That is the only way to be consistant with it. It's either one tree or it's not. If it's one tree then it's one at the bottom and the top.

UKC didn't 'screw the pooch' on that one, they were just following rules and being CONSISTANT with how rules should be interpreted.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 04-06-2012 01:48 AM:

Re: Re: Do we UNMINUS these points too???

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
In my opinion, the handler should have never treed his dog while it was baying/catching a coon. I know I know the difference in my dog's bark. Minus tree, plus the strike. You never know, that dog could have treed a litter and realized there was a kitten hanging in a bush nearby and grabbed it and came into the cast after leaving the initial tree.

Jim,

I remember that well, and it's happened to me more than once! The problem is always at the same time of year, when the kittens just start venturing out. Kitten coon are dumb, and they climb little bitty saplings, they fall out of the trees, or they only climb up a few feet off the ground. In every situation I've seen, the dog reaches up and plucks the kitten off the side of the tree. The dog locates, starts treeing, and then gets snatched off the side of a tree.....

You can't un-sink a ship. However, having said that I truly think that a judge should have the ability to "correct" judgement calls when the situation arises. "Unminusing" is all bad in my book. Sounds to me that the judge made a call and discovered that a condition existed where the judgement call was "wrong", and corrected it.

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Posted by stillwater farm on 04-06-2012 03:16 AM:

The rules say that dogs are to be handled on split trees AND THEN judge and cast decide if they touch and are to be scored as one tree.So to me,until they are handled it is two trees.In fact,UKC says they are to be put down on the card as seperate trees.If one gets down before he is handled then he hasn't held HIS tree.I never could understand UKC's thought process on this?At that time,IT'S NOT ONE TREE,you are scoring them as a split tree and one just moved....HE NEEDS MINUSED.jmo.

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Posted by Rip on 04-06-2012 03:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
The rules say that dogs are to be handled on split trees AND THEN judge and cast decide if they touch and are to be scored as one tree.So to me,until they are handled it is two trees.In fact,UKC says they are to be put down on the card as seperate trees.If one gets down before he is handled then he hasn't held HIS tree.I never could understand UKC's thought process on this?At that time,IT'S NOT ONE TREE,you are scoring them as a split tree and one just moved....HE NEEDS MINUSED.jmo.

You are missing the boat.

If it is determined after you put the light in the tree that you were WRONG and it was one tree then you do NOT minus that dog, that's where Jim is talking about "unminusing" a dog. If that happens and you realize that in fact he didn't leave his tree because the two are the same tree then you have the obligation to fix it.

It's just common sense that if you are blatantly wrong on your call that you fix it. Think a coon is a possum and somebody points out it's a coon then you don't say "well that's tough I thought it was a possum we are minused", or even better you accidentally put a minus sign beside the wrong dog. You don't just say "well it's on the paper now, tough break maybe I won't write it down wrong next time". No you fix it. What they are talking about with regard to it being one tree is no different, but it has to be something that is obvious and you know was wrong, not something that could have happened.

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Posted by stillwater farm on 04-06-2012 03:58 AM:

We'll have to agree to disagree Rip,I don't think I missed any boat.In this situation the only thing that missed was one of those two dogs.LOL.To me,if mine says it climbed the pine tree,he needs to be on THAT pine tree and if yours thinks it climbed the oak 30 feet over it needs to stay there.Neither one should be going and hanging out with the other regardless if they touch or not up top and if they do they need minused.Until they're handled it is two seperate trees and should be scored as such.JMO.

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Posted by Rip on 04-06-2012 04:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
We'll have to agree to disagree Rip,I don't think I missed any boat.In this situation the only thing that missed was one of those two dogs.LOL.To me,if mine says it climbed the pine tree,he needs to be on THAT pine tree and if yours thinks it climbed the oak 30 feet over it needs to stay there.Neither one should be going and hanging out with the other regardless if they touch or not up top and if they do they need minused.Until they're handled it is two seperate trees and should be scored as such.JMO.

You can disagree with me all you want but UKC says not to minus that dog and to CORRECT YOUR MISTAKE because you mistakenly minused a dog that never left it's tree.

No different than if you mistakenly minused a dog at a hole and it came crawling out of the hole. Dog was there all along and you were wrong.

Same thing here. You saw it going from what you thought was one tree to another but later found out it was the same tree so therefore it could not have left and you should not have minused it.

That's UKC's official position on this. They are not saying that you shouldn't announce the dog as minused, they are just saying if that happens, and the tree it moves to is actually the same tree that you have to correct your mistake and not award that dog minus points.

I agree that what you thought you saw should have been minused, but when you realize that it didn't leave the tree because it couldn't, they were one tree then you have to correct that mistake just like you would correct an addition or subtraction error or any other obvious error.

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Posted by l.lyle on 04-06-2012 04:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
To me, the obvious answer is the dog stays minused but......since UKC says we must UNMINUS them when they cover two trees scored as one, how do we not go back and correct this situation too? The dog was treed on a caught coon. Rule 3(b) clearly states you delete tree points when the coon is caught. If we must UNMINUS the dog on two trees, why don't we UNMINUS this dog?

I don't get what the "covered two trees scored as one" fits in this scenario. What two trees? And I did read the whole thread believe it or not . LOL

Posted by JiM on 04-06-2012 04:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip

UKC has always maintained one tree at top one tree at bottom. If they are one then the dog hasn't left anything bouncing between the two trunks because both are the same tree.

"One tree at the top, one tree at the bottom."
That right there is the root of this whole cluster****. That was the original screwing of tha pooch right there because even though they may be scored as one tree at the top, they sure as heck weren't never one tree at the bottom. The coon may have moved around at the top but he darn sure didn't climb both trees. One of those trees is the wrong one and a dog moving back and forth between the two don't know where the coon went up. He don't know where the coon climbed, he ain't treed right and he deserves his minus.

Posted by jackbob42 on 04-06-2012 04:47 AM:

I can't understand why we would score 2 trees as 1 anyway. The coon didn't go up in 2 places.
In my opinion , the only time we should score multiple trees as one is if they all come off the same rootball.
Not just because they touch at the top.

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Posted by stillwater farm on 04-06-2012 05:01 AM:

I realize that is UKC's position on it Rip and that is what I don't understand.What's the difference in these senerios other than top of trees touch.That isn't going to change my dogs actions because he don't know if they touch or not.

1)My dog is treed in,when we get close to him he is on a pine tree,before he is handled,he gets down,goes over 30 ft and starts treeing on a big oak tree.By the rules....he is minused and must be retreed.

2)Mine is on the pine tree and yours is over 30 ft on the oak,as we get there mine gets down and goes to yours on the oak.Trees don't touch....he's minused.

3)Mine is on the pine and yours is 30 ft over on the oak,mine goes to yours as we get there but they do touch......score as one and plus them both up.

Here's my feelings on it.All three conditions my dog has done the exact same thing,he has left his tree and moved and deserves minused regardless if the trees touch 30 feet up in the air or not.The rules are designed for a dog to be judged on the ability to strike,trail,and accurately locate and hold there tree.In all three situations my dog did not hold his tree.I know how UKC rules say to score but my personal opinion he needs minused.

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 04-06-2012 04:28 PM:

Did it ever occur to any of you that maybe the coon left the tree earlier by coming down one trunk and upon returning to the tree after feeding, it climbed the other trunk. Some times there are two coon up the same tree even though you only see one, maybe each one climbed a different trunk.

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Posted by Randy Howard on 04-06-2012 04:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
I realize that is UKC's position on it Rip and that is what I don't understand.What's the difference in these senerios other than top of trees touch.That isn't going to change my dogs actions because he don't know if they touch or not.

1)My dog is treed in,when we get close to him he is on a pine tree,before he is handled,he gets down,goes over 30 ft and starts treeing on a big oak tree.By the rules....he is minused and must be retreed.

2)Mine is on the pine tree and yours is over 30 ft on the oak,as we get there mine gets down and goes to yours on the oak.Trees don't touch....he's minused.

3)Mine is on the pine and yours is 30 ft over on the oak,mine goes to yours as we get there but they do touch......score as one and plus them both up.

Here's my feelings on it.All three conditions my dog has done the exact same thing,he has left his tree and moved and deserves minused regardless if the trees touch 30 feet up in the air or not.The rules are designed for a dog to be judged on the ability to strike,trail,and accurately locate and hold there tree.In all three situations my dog did not hold his tree.I know how UKC rules say to score but my personal opinion he needs minused.

I have to agree with you. I don't like minus anymore than anyone else but dog needs to commit to a tree, plus this senario doesn't really happen that often. Does it?If dog would have stayed split and trees touch plus both

Posted by JiM on 04-06-2012 04:37 PM:

Came down one, went back up the other.... that must be it.
With all these possibilities, we should never minus them for anything. Just add up plus points and ignore all minus/circle points. There are no mistakes, just coons seen and enough excuses to choke a bluetick. And if somebody does decide to just take their minus....well we'll just shoot that s.o.b. before word gets around.

Posted by Randy Howard on 04-06-2012 04:44 PM:

LoL thats funny stuff Jim, Next we'll be hearin coons can fly

Posted by Cornbelt on 04-06-2012 05:38 PM:

I had this scenario play out one night while I was judging. Only two dogs left in the cast we cut them on a creek and they were both winding a coon when cut. They crossed the creek and struck went up a tall bank and started treeing about 60 feet from the cast. Both dogs treed and you could tell they were split about 15 feet apart. The one guy treed(dog A) and the other decided to wait and see if his dog (dog B) was going to check himself. Of course about a minute in I can plainly hear dog A is now with dog B so I minus A. Dog B is then treed and dog A is Retreed. As we are crossing the creek and coming up the bank Dog A leaves dog B and goes back to where he was to the right. So I minus him again his owner trees him again . All dogs are treed so both dogs are handled. As we start shining dog B's tree it is obvious a large branch is broken on Dog A's tree and laying into Dog B's tree. Now as a judge I stopped the shine time and said we need to score this as one tree. Both handlers were curious as to how this would effect the scoring. I said we would need to unminus dog A and give him first tree since he was treed first. I felt this was the right thing to do if it is considered one tree. All handlers accepted the judgement without questioning the call (which I told them they could do). So we resumed the shine time and found that there was a coon in Dog B's tree and there was another on the broken branch going from A's tree to B's tree. I've thought this scenario through many times in my head and feel that was the best way I could have handled it.

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Posted by Cornbelt on 04-06-2012 05:46 PM:

I do have a question for everyone saying the dog needs to be where the coon went up the tree? What do you do if you have a big oak tree and the dog is treed sitting 20 feet from the trunk right under a coon sitting 15 feet above him and the other dogs are on the trunk treeing? Is it possible the dog not on the trunk is treeing the same coon?

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