UKC Forums - ?????? about father/daughter cross

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-- ?????? about father/daughter cross (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=493166)

Posted by l.lyle on 03-29-2012 08:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Dillard
WHY WOULD ANYONE INBRED? REMEMBER WE AS HUMANS NEED TO BE SMARTER THAN THE ANIMALS WE RAISE.

Goes back to Noah I recon but that is about as far as I can figger!

Posted by skeets on 03-29-2012 08:23 AM:

or adam and eves children might be a good start.lol

Posted by l.lyle on 03-29-2012 08:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by skeets
or adam and eves children might be a good start.lol

I didn't want to open up that can of worms.

Posted by skeets on 03-29-2012 08:43 AM:

theres a lot of different views about that i know.lol

Posted by l.lyle on 03-29-2012 09:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by skeets
theres a lot of different views about that i know.lol

Of de Jungle King: Naked to the world . On Mount Araat there was long ones, short ones, big ones, fat ones, tall ones , skinny ones, white ones, brown ones .. .. But dey I was...

! http://youtu.be/ZObai6jztYg

The marsh is just a big field of tall grass.

Posted by skeets on 03-29-2012 09:41 AM:

i dont think ive ever heard anything like that before. i got a contact high from hearing all that racket lol. rip earl scruggs

Posted by Brian Carter on 03-29-2012 01:12 PM:

The names may not be right but the dogs are and have well known offspring and winners who reproduced.

Medleys Homer dog( I think) was out of a son mother cross

------------------------------Skuna river Lipper
---------------------Skuna River Something
-------------------------------Queen

Homer

---------------------Queen

I think

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Posted by Rip on 03-29-2012 01:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by skeets
i dont think ive ever heard anything like that before. i got a contact high from hearing all that racket lol. rip earl scruggs

If you are talking about my long winded likely confusing post I understand completely LOL.

That's why I said Larry Atherton would be the best to try and explain this cause for one thing he has more experience and knows more about it than me and for another he can explain it much better than I can and it goes over better.

I don't care who breeds what or where, I was just trying to shed some light on the "too close" issue. People act like they are gonna have three heads or somethin and that just doesn't happen.

Heck even back in 1989 there were some studies that showed inbreeding HUMANS increased their risks of birth defects/unwanted traits/diseases by 2%. Baseline is 2%, inbred is 4% but again those things didn't "pop up", they weren't new, it just revealed the flaws that were in the genetic lines and were hidden and newer studies show that was a very high estimate and in reality it isn't that high. That study also showed an effect on litter size, height, IQ but again this was small like the predicted defect/disease numbers. Even in that study that estimated things on the high side nothing just "popped up" and just jumped out at them. No "these are goofey and their parents are normal", they had to do specific tests to see any run statistical analysis to show any difference.

Very heavy inbreeding is how they have gotten these mice to where they can knock out one gene and see the effect on the mouse. The rest are so much alike that it's differences will be due to that gene. Heck they can even grow them that have florecent green eyes that glow in the dark.

Heavy inbreeding lines do start having a depression of litter size and other things, but it's a small percentage and it's at high levels before you would ever see it consistantly. Just to give one more example on how little our dogs are inbred in comparison it takes THREE GENERATIONS of breeding nothing but full brother and sister (the most inbred you can get aside from self fertilization) to get to an inbreeding coefficient of 50%.

I'm sure somebody out there has inbred dogs to that extent but I doubt it was with coondogs LOL.

I wouldn't recommend that either, just giving an example of how one father/daughter cross isn't anywhere near "close" in the genetics world if they aren't related already.

The thing is the degree of relatedness should be the LAST thing you look at. You need good selection of the parents. Doesn't matter if it is from a 30 generation line bred cross with 50% inbreeding coefficient if the parents ain't got it then they can't throw it.

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-29-2012 03:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by branchvillekell
dear sir, show me the blood line on a white mouse. please do. oh yeah, you cant. sure enough, i have seen a blood line to a specific breed be dominant in recessive traits for the last 5 years. but, i guess you can trace their blood line. too close for too many years equals more probability that the qualities you didnt want will show because you have bred for it.
of course it takes many years to perfect the imperfect dog.

kelley

Kelly,

Mouse strains used for scientific research aren't even considered a strain until they have been inbred 20 generations.

The secret to such tight breeding is knowing traits and their mode of transmission. If a trait is a simple recessive trait, the breeder can actually through selection and culling completely remove that trait from the strain. This is what has been done with laboratory mice.

Don't get me wrong though I would never suggest doing such a thing with dogs.

Breeding dogs has been researched very extensively with some very good results. The problem with many breeders are that they get kennel blindness ... nope not the dogs ... the breeders.

If anyone is truly interested in these topics, there are some very knowledgeable individuals such as Joe that have contributed to many past discussions. I would take Rip's suggestion and do a search.

Oh Rip, thanks for the vote of confidence, but I am no expert ... just a long time student.

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Aim small miss small

Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-29-2012 03:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by KyKoonHunter32
Breeding in itself is a mystery, we can talk science, genetics, formula's, etc. but no one has it mastered, and probably never will. If their was a true science to breeding or if it was mastered we would all have coon dogs, and every litter produced would be successful.

KyKoonHunter32,

Actually, it is a mix of science and art. Science does work, but there is one major problem. 99% of the breeders out there aren't willing to do the work. So, most still cling to breeding practices that result in reproduction rates of 10-15% at best, and hoping for a jackpot.

As proof that science does work is the extensive records of the Leader Dogs for the Blind organization and their breeding practices.

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Aim small miss small

Posted by Ray&Luie on 03-29-2012 04:25 PM:

inbreeding

I dont think id like the father daughter cross, if i was gona do that id stay more nephew to ant , grand father to grand daughter.
i wouldnt do brother and sister crosses neither. although iv heard some say they had good luck with it.........

__________________
Well Stanley,this looks like another fine mess you've gotten us into

Ray Hudson

Posted by GLANCY'S 7 MILE on 03-29-2012 05:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
KyKoonHunter32,

Actually, it is a mix of science and art. Science does work, but there is one major problem. 99% of the breeders out there aren't willing to do the work. So, most still cling to breeding practices that result in reproduction rates of 10-15% at best, and hoping for a jackpot.

As proof that science does work is the extensive records of the Leader Dogs for the Blind organization and their breeding practices.

If there is a science to breeding, and if it does work, show me the results from that extensive researched, perfectly prepared, formula's in order, scientific cross?

I respect the fact that you are researching in hopes of helping our breed and sport. I just believe it's beyond us. Look at all the avid, big time breeder's in our sport, if their was a science behind it, they would know it, use it, and excel at it. Yet still some crosses make it, some crosses don't. History tells us that not every dog is going to make it. Cull X Cull could produce a top notch dog, Coondog X Cull could produce a top notch dog, Coondog X Coondog could produce a top notch dog, but still getting a whole litter of pups that make it is rare. There is to many different variables that come in to play, even with extensive research it would be to hard to come up with a perfect formula. IMO just have fun and breed responsibly.

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Posted by Ray&Luie on 03-29-2012 05:39 PM:

Breeding

the main thing is you have to be smart enough to say it didnt work , cull and Move on .........

__________________
Well Stanley,this looks like another fine mess you've gotten us into

Ray Hudson

Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-29-2012 06:53 PM:

Ray&Luie,

Just for everyone's knowledge I would never suggest that anyone do a cross that they were uncomfortable doing. I just believe if someone ask a question to provide them with enough information to make better informed decisions.

KyKoonHunter32,

The proof isn't going to be found looking at coon hound breeders. As i stated before the proof does exist by one of the most dedicated dog breeding organizations of working dogs in the world. It doesn't exist by formula. It does exist by extensive records, evaluation, and most of all selection. Selection is the key.

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Aim small miss small

Posted by Ray&Luie on 03-29-2012 07:54 PM:

Homework

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larry Atherton
[B]Ray&Luie,

Just for everyone's knowledge I would never suggest that anyone do a cross that they were uncomfortable doing. I just believe if someone ask a question to provide them with enough information to make better informed decisions.

I agree, but you have to do your home work to know what your gona get! what iv learned through the years is experiance is the best teacher, not just my own but reliying on the wisdom of others and what they have witnessed them selves not just hearsay.
I respect your knowledge Larry youv been around a long Time

__________________
Well Stanley,this looks like another fine mess you've gotten us into

Ray Hudson

Posted by josh on 03-29-2012 09:05 PM:

JMHO, but breed parents with desired similar traits...better yet, breed familys of similar traits.

Line breeding/inbreeding is just one way to accomplish this in the short time we have available.

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Bad decisions make good stories.

Posted by ov_blues on 03-29-2012 11:55 PM:

If you really want to know what you have, do it. Keep the pups yourself or in select hands and monitor them closely. I think it is a great tool for someone wanting to know exactly where they are at in their breeding program. If the cross works the way that they wanted it to, then they have offspring that can be outcrossed successfully also. JMO.

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