UKC Forums - Htx Titles Should Have To Come First

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-- Htx Titles Should Have To Come First (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=491976)

Posted by GA DAWG on 03-22-2012 06:31 AM:

Most folks in the northern half of Ga must disagree. We had one and besides club members. Only 3 showed up lol. We will have another though..Maybe it just ain't caught on here yet.

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Posted by tripple river on 03-22-2012 06:58 AM:

ive seen gr nt dogs i would beat to death with a hammer because they werent worth wasting a bullet on & im sure there are htx dogs that i would feel the same way about.titles are just a indicator of what caliber dog they might be not hard proof.the only way to know is to hunt with the dog.there are to many different styles of dogs for a tittle to tell you verry much about them.I say leave things how they are.i do think the htx is a good thing & not as easy to accomplish as what many would like to believe.

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Posted by Hey Preacher!!! on 03-22-2012 07:00 AM:

Re: Htx Titles Should Have To Come First

quote:
Originally posted by DROPTINE
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE UKC MAKE IT MANDATORY THAT BEFORE A DOG CAN BE TITLED SHOW OR NITE CHAMPION IT SHOULD HAVE TO PROVE FIRST THAT IT CAN TREE A REAL LIVE COON BY ITSELF LETS SEE HOW MANY CAN DO IT OR LETS COME OUT WITH A NEW MAGAZINE TITLED HTX STUDS BET IT WONT BE SO MANY TO CHOSE FROM LOL

IF WE'RE GONNA BE STRICT, WHY NOT GO FULL BORE??? LET'S SAY, NO PERMANENT PAPERS UNTIL HTX, AND DUAL GRAND!!! HOW ABOUT NO BREEDING UNLESS BOTH PARENTS ARE HTX, DUAL GRAND??? AFTER ALL, AREN'T WE TRYING TO PROVE THAT THE DOG IS 'STUD' MATERIAL??? HOW ABOUT SENDING IN 100 OR SO COONTAILS AS PROOF BEFORE REGISTRATION, TITLES, OR BREDDING??? WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE???

Posted by l.lyle on 03-22-2012 07:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Most folks in the northern half of Ga must disagree. We had one and besides club members. Only 3 showed up lol. We will have another though..Maybe it just ain't caught on here yet.

South part of SC either. I would enter though and the main reasons why is: You turn a dog out and he trees a coon or two in an hour. Simple Rules.

If I wanted to comp hunt I got to know the simple rules on the scorecard , which aren't hard, but you also got to know how they can be interpreted and also misinterpreted to work against yo and be willing to call somebady's bluff, and aside from that, you (I) need to apply what I am hearing to what coondogs do. Sometimes the rules get discombobulated from coondogs do and hunting. Plus if you are going to get good , like anything, you have to practice. and that means hunting with a stopwatch LOL Ain't going to happen with me.

Posted by Harry Plotter on 03-22-2012 07:25 AM:

you are a smart feller. just pull a few of them crusty benjamins out of your wallet lyle and get you one of them top notch kentucky lawyer handlers. hunting with the big boys aint that hard. i just don't see you wasting money and time to prove your dog can tree a coon or two in an hour. why don't nobody take a man at his word anymore. i believe most people don't hunt htx hunts cause they don't know what htx means. instead of htx they should of had a ct coons treed. that way a ct25 would mean he done payed witnesses to say he treed 25 coons. that'd be better than a dog treeing only three coons in three nights and being an htx1. heck that ain't much. i can walk a dog to a feeder bucket and tree a coon.

Posted by l.lyle on 03-22-2012 08:28 AM:

What does my crusty Bengies got to do with a $15 HTX? I am a big Boy in a way cause the Big Boys sometimes buy something ready to hunt from me. I Never yet been in a HTX But think I would like to if it wasn't too much trouble to get to and it sure doesn't sound like Drama Trouble from a weekend warrior because that kind won't be there. Just the guy jotting down if the dog did right or wrong. Also HTX doesn't allow feeders and I have not used them in 20+ years so that ought not be a hill to climb. Also, I would have to hunt in unfamiliar territory to my dog that knows every drain on the place and skipps the piney woods because where I hunt I am required to kill every coon I tree and I sure ain't going to lie about that to get a title. And I can't kill them on an HTX., Kind of puts a hitch in my giddyup from that aspect but wild coons are wild coons just the same.

Posted by Trey M on 03-22-2012 02:31 PM:

HTX Hunts

I agree that every dog should be able to tree his or her own coon. I like the HTX hunts, i'll be honest i've never hunted in one because they are a good ride from the house but none the less i'd throw mine in one and hunt them cause the idea of your dog treeing his or her own coon however many times would be recognized quicker, in my opinion. Plus if people love putting titles on thier dogs ,there's another reason to do it.

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Posted by corky crowder on 03-22-2012 02:48 PM:

GRAND NIGHT GRAND CHAMPION OR HUNT HTX
WHAT DIFFERANCE DOSE IT MAKE TO YALL WHAT OTHERS DO WITH THIER DOGS ? THEY ARE THE ONES FOOTING THE BILL.

I DONT CARE ABOUT COMP HUNTING OR HTX I PLEASURE HUNT AND ENJOY SHOWING MY DOGS [I LIKE COON HUNTING NOT DOG HUNTING BECAUSE HE,S RUN 2 COUNTYS OVER TO FIND A HOT TRACK. BUT IF YOU LIKE THIS TYPE DOG IM NOT GOING TO SAY YOU DONT HAVE THE RIGHT TO HUNT IT.

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Posted by Dale Young on 03-22-2012 03:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by corky crowder
GRAND NIGHT GRAND CHAMPION OR HUNT HTX
WHAT DIFFERANCE DOSE IT MAKE TO YALL WHAT OTHERS DO WITH THIER DOGS ? THEY ARE THE ONES FOOTING THE BILL.

I DONT CARE ABOUT COMP HUNTING OR HTX I PLEASURE HUNT AND ENJOY SHOWING MY DOGS [I LIKE COON HUNTING NOT DOG HUNTING BECAUSE HE,S RUN 2 COUNTYS OVER TO FIND A HOT TRACK. BUT IF YOU LIKE THIS TYPE DOG IM NOT GOING TO SAY YOU DONT HAVE THE RIGHT TO HUNT IT.

Pretty much how I see it to.

If you want to hunt field mice with a St. Bernard go for it but don't tell the rest of us we can't use a mouse trap.

We already got a rule book that requires a second book to explain what it says.

To me regulations, taxes and licenses on everything we do or dream of doing tomorrow is our biggest promblem in the life we're trying to live and not just hunting. Somebody always thinks everybody should do it their way or not at all.

Posted by Ben Crocker on 03-22-2012 03:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Young
Pretty much how I see it to.

If you want to hunt field mice with a St. Bernard go for it but don't tell the rest of us we can't use a mouse trap.

We already got a rule book that requires a second book to explain what it says.

To me regulations, taxes and licenses on everything we do or dream of doing tomorrow is our biggest promblem in the life we're trying to live and not just hunting. Somebody always thinks everybody should do it their way or not at all.

well said Dale. I agree

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Posted by Tully on 03-22-2012 03:43 PM:

Hilarious!

I hunt my dogs solo 80% of the time. They tree "REAL WILD COONS" (Whatever that means), by themselves anyway. Who do you think you are to try to make someone PAY to pleasure hunt???

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Posted by starplott on 03-22-2012 04:39 PM:

Re: Re: Htx Titles Should Have To Come First

quote:
Originally posted by Hey Preacher!!!
IF WE'RE GONNA BE STRICT, WHY NOT GO FULL BORE??? LET'S SAY, NO PERMANENT PAPERS UNTIL HTX, AND DUAL GRAND!!! HOW ABOUT NO BREEDING UNLESS BOTH PARENTS ARE HTX, DUAL GRAND??? AFTER ALL, AREN'T WE TRYING TO PROVE THAT THE DOG IS 'STUD' MATERIAL??? HOW ABOUT SENDING IN 100 OR SO COONTAILS AS PROOF BEFORE REGISTRATION, TITLES, OR BREDDING??? WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE???

As I am sure you, of all people lol, have heard me before; thish is not a new idea. In other breeds/countries, dogs must prove themselves worthy before being allowed to be bred. Certain breed associations require a working dog to have no disqualifying faults, have cleared all health tests for the breed, and pass working aptitude tests BEFORE allowing to be bred. It goes both ways.

Not only would that stop people from breeding dogs for show with no hunt drive, it would prevent the breeding/titling of working dogs that are not good representations of the breed standards and those with genetic disorders common in the breed.

That would require about $500+ spent in preventative health tests, a breed judge to evaluate the dog before it would be allowed into competition of working nature (this case nite hunts, water races, field trials) and the dog would have to prove working ability before being allowed to show; with all three having to be passed in order to breed.

There's no more value in a breed of a dog that has what it takes to work that has a disqualifying fault structure wise than a dog of proper structure with lack of work ability! They go hand in hand to make and distinguish the breed. Breed standards are in place to do two things. Set characteristics that separate the breed from all others and to lay down structural and temp. characteristics needed to be able to properly perform in the function the breed was created. This case would be to hunt coon.

As a breeder, I am all for setting the bar high in a breeding program. I do not have a problem with any requirements to only breed proven healthy, show quality, and working quality dogs and not breeding what does not depict the TOTAL dog.

BUT, it has to be ALL inclusive! Not just get rid of show dogs that don't hunt! They are no less a hazard to a breed than a dog that has a bad bite, wasted movement, under/oversized, improper color, or is a carrier of genetic defects.

If you can't go all the way to preserve the breed in its entirety....then it is left to individual breeders as to how the breed will be preserved or changed.

Any less than equal consideration to breed type, working ability, health, and structure in a breeding program is detrimental to a breed just as equally.

One sided requirements just promotes a breeder and not a breed.

Yes, there should be less titled show dogs if required to demonstrate hunting ability. But there'd be a big decrease in working titled dogs if they made it equally important to make sure they met breed standard and were free of debilitating genetic defects. Breeding would be greatly reduced if only healthy and true to breed standard in its entirety were allowed to be bred.

Neither side of this topic is more right or more wrong. It is just personal preference unless it is all inclusive. One of the freedoms enjoyed in this country to have a personal preference and breed to meet personal preference rather than being required to breed to the integrity to the entire breed standard requirements. It also makes it to where anybody can participate in the venue of their choice at any income level. You would not be seeing mixed bred, $200-$400 pups, or have the number of pups available if such requirements to breed were to be based on health, working ability, and meeting the breed standard in its entirety.Coonhound pups would quickly rise to $900+ level with other breeds where breeders cater to the total dog in their breeding programs.

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Posted by Jon Millwood on 03-22-2012 04:55 PM:

I agree the quality of the majority of the dogs you see are not good but, They'res still a lot of good hounds out there.. The reason most people cant find good dogs is because they're simply not willing to pay the price it costs to buy a good one.. Some people favor the HTX hunts and to each their own.. That the only way some people can win is they're the only one playing.. Consider this, If you go to a HTX and you get guided to a spot where they're is no coons and the dog doesnt tree one.. does that make it a pos? If you dont like the way things are, pack up your toys and move along.... Start your own K.C. The difference between a good dog and a sorry one is how deep you reach in your pocket

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Posted by blueticker on 03-22-2012 05:08 PM:

It really doesn't matter to me. If someone wants to pay entry fees and train their hound more power to them. If they beat me honestly more power to them. They may have the best hound.

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Posted by Brandon Coselman on 03-22-2012 05:19 PM:

HTX is a joke in my opinion! Thats all i got to say about it...

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Posted by JiM on 03-22-2012 05:31 PM:

HTX is aimed squarely at those who don't have the confidence in their dogs or themselves to put their dog in a four dog randomly drawn cast. But they want their dog to have the honor of a title so that gets them the HTX title. Problem is the HTX titles have zero credibility with the coonhunting masses. So the HTX guys want to find a way to tie HTX to Nite Hunt titles in an effort to gain some of that credibility. And that is all this is really about.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 03-22-2012 05:32 PM:

For as many fake grntch and all like you ALL think is out there. They would 10 times as many FAKE htx winners!!! Remeber that. 10 TIMES AS MANY! If they made this happen first. Which they aint gonna do. So might as well get over it.

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Posted by Ray Lilly on 03-22-2012 05:42 PM:

I understand the idea of the htx but I dont see it really going anywhere. Now dont get me wrong, I'm am ALL for a dog having to tree a coon by themselves, I try to hunt mine atleast 50% of the time alone and if they eat my feed they better know how to do it on there own. But I'm not going to drive 1 or 2 hours to hunt by myself, I can do this pleasure hunting.For me it's exspensive enough to try and make it to all the other hunts, I dont want to pay to hunt alone. I go to a hunt for COMPETITION.
Another thing is that it allows a rough dog to get a title.
The other problem I see is that there is no room to grow for a program like this. What I mean is it's hard enough for most clubs to come up with 4-5 guides these days. What's going to happen if this program does grow? How is your average club going to put 10,15 or 20 dogs in the woods? Most clubs dont have enough guides for this program to grow. I dont mean to come across negative, this just my opinion (which usually means nothing lol).
Good luck with the program though because I'm sure there are some that enjoy it and thats great. If they get any of them around her I might slip over to support the club but it aint nothing that I would spend much money on.

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Posted by starplott on 03-22-2012 05:54 PM:

It's all a joke depending on personal preference. Some people think nite hunts are a joke because you are hunting with strange dogs and even stranger handlers. Others feel the test is a joke because it is based on one dog behind closed doors. It has been well voiced a lot think bench shows are a joke. Some people think all venues in UKC are a joke.

It is what YOU make it. I have been on comp, pleasure and, biggame hunts that have been less than fun. Been at shows that were less than buddy judging. It is all part of the big picture.

Nobody is required to show, hunt, breed, or trial their dogs. It all goes to personal preference.

Be it show, hunt test, trial, or comp hunt...nobody has the right to discredit efforts put into a dog to get them to title. Doesn't mean the titles are the end all be all. Not all dogs w/o titles are worthless and not all dogs with titles are top notch. There is always something better around the corner. Nobody never loses and always wins. For that...a lot of people think any type of comp is a joke.

I've seen some good dogs lose at hunts due to handling errors and mistakes. Doesn't always mean the cast winner IS the better dog. I've lost a hunt to a dog that was underfoot most the night. Kid won the cast as my dog got a coon on the ground and was fighting it while the other dog stood 10' away barking. Mine didn't make any noise other than coon being shaken around. But, because the kid's dog was barking and mine was not as he was too intent on putting teeth to it, the kid's dog won. Not sure how one could depict a dog underfoot almost timed out that runs to another dog who hunted him up a coon under an outbuilding and was hell bent on killing it is a better coondog, especially if it was scared ofbthe coon. But it got the points and cast win. Didn't do a thing to negate the dog I had in my eyes. Didn't stop me from enjoying myself on the hunt.

It all makes sense and it is all senseless, just boils down to personal preference.

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Posted by jackbob42 on 03-22-2012 06:02 PM:

I guess I must be different than most.
I don't look at the hunt test like most seem to.
To me , it's not the fact that the dog has to tree a coon.
It's the fact that he has to do it without making 3 mistakes.

How many of you guys have dogs that can do it without making those 3 mistakes?
I don't care how many coons it can tree in an hour. I wanna know how many mistakes it makes.

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Posted by Trey M on 03-22-2012 06:03 PM:

I can look at a dog papers all day long and I can think of one good thing papers are good for but like people have said thier are a lot of fake grnite ch dogs out there. So all HTX is to prove that he or she ain't a fake grnite ch and they can get the job done. Read the rules and understand how it works in each hunt test before knocking it. Opinions are like ****holes everybody has one.

Posted by Jason Baldwin on 03-22-2012 06:05 PM:

If you want to know if a dog is the kind of dog you like, go hunting with the dog and see for yourself. No title, wether its Hunt test, nite champ, grand nite, or world champion will ever tell you that !

Posted by Trey M on 03-22-2012 06:11 PM:

There you go ,how many mistakes does everybodys dog make? Like I said I havent hunted in one so I don't know how many mistakes my dog makes but i'll find out when a HTX hunt comes closer to the house. That i'll know what to work on with my dog. Bottom line we all want our dogs to be the best to thier ability.

Posted by cbcoonskinner on 03-22-2012 06:33 PM:

If anyone is worried about counterfiet grand night's and night champions then they should be lobbing for three hour hunts and three hundred minus and your out. Back in them days it took a coon dog to win. And don't tell me there is no place to hunt for three hours anymore.There are way to many one hour and two hour hunts that's what I think has created all the super stud of the month studs.Of course this is just my own opinion

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Posted by Ray Lilly on 03-22-2012 07:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cbcoonskinner
If anyone is worried about counterfiet grand night's and night champions then they should be lobbing for three hour hunts and three hundred minus and your out. Back in them days it took a coon dog to win. And don't tell me there is no place to hunt for three hours anymore.There are way to many one hour and two hour hunts that's what I think has created all the super stud of the month studs.Of course this is just my own opinion

AMEN!!AMEN!!AMEN!!!
I would LOVE to see 3 hour hunts with 300- and your out but there is alot of place anymore that dont have enough land around here.

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