UKC Forums - Competition vs. Pleasure

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-16-2012 12:48 AM:

These high powered Comp bred dogs have made it about impossible to find a dog that will hunt without running like an idiot for a half mile before they ever start hunting. hearing my dogs get struck a half mile away and be treed by the time you break out the garmin and drive around just isnt all that much fun anymore. Guess im gettin old but it sure would be nice to walk along and listen to the race once in a while. Guess i need a PLEASURE dog, if you got one to sell drop me a PM.

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Posted by butchr on 03-16-2012 02:55 AM:

pleasure vs competition

David, I agree with your thoughts. However, We all know that competition hunting is a game. I sure don't blame anyone for training or breeding for the type of hound it takes to win in competition. And sure, there are plenty of hounds that are capable of being fun to hunt thru the week and in competition also, but I really don't believe that many of the most successful competition hounds would be that "pleasurable" to hunt thru the week. Pleasurable or not, if I was serious about competition hunting, I would own one of em. But I'm not. I prefer hunting with friends and having dogs that "pack" somewhat. A lot of people call these type of hounds "me tooers". (and sure, some are) But, believe it or not a lot of the "me tooers" still compete with each other while packing together. I think a lot of these old hounds are smarter than we give them credit for. I've had hounds that when hunting with a strange hound would check them on strike once or maybe twice, but if that hound wasn"t "right", they were done with them for the night. I'll alway believe that two good hounds working together will tree more coons year in and year out than either one would have by theirself. Bottom line is, we all just need to hunt the type of dog we like. JMO

Posted by l.lyle on 03-16-2012 03:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Why are yalls dogs not with mine when it strikes 300 yards to the left? Why did yalls go the wrong way?

It could be because because your dog has a better nose and knows how to use it. Mine knows how to use his nose but he also knows when he cuts a two hour track he'll miss it if he cuts it doing 10 miles an hour. So he hunts about 5 miles an hour. Yours has a better nose and can pick it up at 10 miles an hour , plain and simple a better nose to do that. Yours strikes at 300 yards so yours is ahead of mine. Follow that gragh on out and you will see a decent nose dog bee lining at twenty miles an hour can only pick up a 5 minute old track. The good thing is he ain't got far to run one that fresh so he ought to get treed right now. Now before you cut loose imagine that your dog is going to take off where you point him but also ask yourself how far in that northwest direction is a 5 minute old track? Yes it could be 100 yards but more likely And alot more likely several hour old tracks is closer than a five minute old track.

So it all depends if you want to have pleasure hearing a dog strike a mile away and by the time you can drive up to hear a race he is already treed or would you rather have a dog take an hour old track 100 yards from you and you can stand around and listen to him work it up and tree it. I did the godog route for a long time till I figured I might as well be hunting a silent dog, treeing coons, and still not hearing a race.

Posted by GA DAWG on 03-16-2012 05:39 AM:

I cut a 9 yr old and a 10 month old together tonight. Neither one would honor the other lol. Just how I like it. You'd think they were both deaf or something. Im trying to put some go go power in the pup. Ain't gonna work like I thought it would. She don't have to gooooooo power by 18 months. I'll sell her to ya and you can breed her to a cur or something.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-16-2012 06:27 AM:

Re: Competition vs. Pleasure

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
Another thread made me think about this, and I thought it worthy of a separate conversation, so as to not derail that other guy's thread on a rule question. Here's partially what I wrote...

"I think one thing people forget, is that in the old days coon hunting was more of a social event. Folks didn't mind dogs "helping" one another or "backing" another on a tree. They just wanted to go out and tree some coon, they didn't want to walk all over god's creation going from one tree to another. And much of that remains today, in certain circles. It's us competition hunters that demand a dog be independent and do there own thing. In other words, backing a dog on a tree is a fault in a competition hunters point of you, not necessarily a coon hunters. I think this is why UKC allows 5 minutes to get on a tree after the first one, and you're only penalized for taking too long, not the aspect of covering in itself."

We say we hunt for pleasure during the week and competition on the weekend, but do we??? I mean how much fun is it really when you get together with your hunting buddies that all pack "competition" dogs and you either spend the night, all walking all over the country, or splitting up to go to your own trees? I mean what's the point in getting together with your buddies if you spend the night in different directions???

Just some random thoughts...

David Schmidt

In the old days the men wanted to compete on a track. Listen to the dogs pass each other only to have another pass his. They competed to see who could work the track fastest.
These days you have a lot of people in the sport that doesn't know that dogs are by instinct and nature a pack animal. Then some know it but just look at a loner dog as a easy win. If it gets by itself it will get 125 on tree every time. Most aren't really independant. Dogs that do it a lot of the time are submissive dogs that are afraid or has had bad experiences with other dogs. Hold it guys I said most but not all. Some might had just not of got the pack instinct. Just like some don't get the hunt instinct.
Oh and covering any more is a miss used word. Just becouse they run the same track doesn't meen they know till they get to the tree that they are even running the same track if they hit it in differant places.
I want my dog about the way you discribed. They better hunt the area as they go.
They better go check a dog if it opens before mine has a track.
If it is running trash they better find a coon track and not check it any more.
Now in thick coon like you were talking about and treeing in 100 yds. I could see were you would have a lot of split trees. They would just find differant tracks at the same time.
I would like to see UKC do something to keep the hound the way it was in the beginning. A pack animal

Oh and the differance between a pleasure dog and a comp dog is the drive. I want a comp. dog that is busting at the seams with energy and drive. If I have that I can make it hunt as it goes and not bust threw a half section before it starts hunting.
A pleasure dog I want seattled down and near as hyper.
Kind of like the differance between a race car and a luxury car.
Both do the same thing takeing you down the road. One is just a lot more comfortable to make the trip in.

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Posted by mauser06 on 03-16-2012 06:38 AM:

different guys enjoy different things....its a good time listening to a pack of dogs burn a good track....but if i wanna do that, i'll head down south and meet up with my bear huntin buddies and get a pack of plotts turned loose...

i wouldnt care if trees were scored in the order called no matter if they were split or not...id STILL train my dogs like i do...to have a brain of their own and go huntin and dont worry about anything else..all they need to know is to go find a coon track and tree that coon...

i dont see how my dog isnt competing with the rest...i cut it loose at the same time as the rest...its not trained to run away from the pack...it usually leads the pack..might not take first strike or tree every time..but she'll be leading it and i can usually get an honest first tree call...but if she does go alone, shes still competing with the other dogs..to find and tree the most coon and the quickest...just because it might not be the same coon doesnt mean a thing IMO...

maybe im spoiled because we have fairly thick coon...

i dont like my dogs backing others because ive seen enough slick trees with the pack dogs...sure the dogs i hunt miss here n there...i rather they miss on their own than back another or the pack...

last weekend at a RQE the pack took a track straight..mine took one left..they treed..she treed...4 mins later they were all minused..5 mins later we scored her tree...plus her up! i recast to the pack..she goes in, strikes in...pack trees..i didnt hear her so didnt call her...get closer and called her split..pack is on a SLICK..shes 4 trees away with the coon...my independent dog had the brains to get plussed up on 2 coon while the rest were minused atleast once some took minus twice...

ive also had the dog i was leading throw its head wanting to go when we were walkin in as some or all the others did...the guide kept walking...99% of the time mine was the only one smart enough to go back to that hot track and tree that coon...the other dogs get cut and run off together....

just dont see how my "independent" dogs aint competing or deserving of their wins and titles like some are claiming...i got lots of examples and could go on for a long while on the subject and why i single mine out and make it learn to hunt alone...

my dogs WILL back another dog...IF they take a track to that tree...and they WILL stay treed if the pack backs them...they will hunt with others...but just have their own brain and know how to use it...

ive seen it in pup training with buddies a lot.."oh this pup is doin so good running and treeing right behind the old dog!" ya...its running and treeing BEHIND the old dog...it knows how to chase and follow the old dog around...take it out alone and it dont know how to leave your feet...get it on a hot track and it cant move it...its just lost without that old dog doin all the work...

not trying to be argumentative...different guys enjoy different things...thats GREAT.....but theres NO reason to bash independent dogs and the guys that run them...

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Posted by l.lyle on 03-16-2012 06:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
I cut a 9 yr old and a 10 month old together tonight. Neither one would honor the other lol. Just how I like it. You'd think they were both deaf or something. Im trying to put some go go power in the pup. Ain't gonna work like I thought it would. She don't have to gooooooo power by 18 months. I'll sell her to ya and you can breed her to a cur or something.

I took my tree year old grandson to Shag club tonght He wanted to rap wallow. Everybody thought it was CUTE. Maybe we should take lessons from him?

Posted by mauser06 on 03-16-2012 06:44 AM:

i do agree Okie that dogs are naturally pack animals....

i just personally think its a lot more fun to see 1 dog use its brain and tree a coon than me-too another dog....i hate slackers in the job field...i hate slackers in the coon dog world...get it done alone! to me, coon huntin aint a team sport!

maybe UKC should make it a team sport? lol 4 dog casts competing against other 4 dog casts...

good example...your FAST dog isnt nearly as accurate as my slower dog...but because its faster to strike and tree and "compete" its the better dog??? i dont think so!

on the score card or with the 22 a dog with a brain is gunna win....

maybe my idea of "independent" is different than y'alls and is why im having a hard time with this subject lol...maybe my dogs aint independent they are just smart....lol..

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-16-2012 06:46 AM:

i dont like my dogs backing others because ive seen enough slick trees with the pack dogs...sure the dogs i hunt miss here n there...i rather they miss on their own than back another or the pack...
QUOTE

That is not backing. That is me tooing. There is a big differance. Just becouse they go honor another dog and get on the same track doesn't meen they shouldn't do there own work and I wouldn't have one that wouldn't. They are supose to check to see if there is a track leaveing that tree before they settle and tree on it.

Posted by mauser06 on 03-16-2012 06:53 AM:

i guess what i dont like is a dog BEE LINING to a dog because it barked...or quitting a track to go to a dog that is treed...or going to a treed dog...but i guess y'all agree that the dog shouldnt do that and should take the track to that tree...my dog is just dumb and slow and got left behind...LoL...

i guess theres lots of ways to look at it....

in the end, it dont matter if anyone likes the dog im hunting...and dont matter if i like theirs...only person the dog gotta please is the person feeding it....

(ps....i DO get a ton of compliments on the dogs i run.....the other nite i had a guy withdraw and could have went home but he decided to stay the last hour and watch my dog smoke em..not bragging..but it was a good nite for us....900+ points..no circle no minus..)

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Posted by l.lyle on 03-16-2012 07:03 AM:

Mauser , you said , you did not hear her so you did not call her on track. Then you called her treed somewhwere. Did you here her before you called her or was it ? just one of them things when you got there and it happened out that way?

Posted by mauser06 on 03-16-2012 07:10 AM:

i called her struck probably within the minute of me recasting her to the pack....

the other 3 dogs were called treed...we started that way stopping along the way so i could listen...5 running down and i couldnt hear her treed so i didnt call her treed...when we got close, i called her split...she was split 4 trees or so away...

her voice got soft on me within the last year...we kept her and her pups outside and i think she barked a bunch..glad Saturday granded her out...just getting tough to hear if she gets real deep or theres a couple REAL loud and REAL mouthy dogs in the cast...

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-16-2012 07:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mauser06
i do agree Okie that dogs are naturally pack animals....

i just personally think its a lot more fun to see 1 dog use its brain and tree a coon than me-too another dog....i hate slackers in the job field...i hate slackers in the coon dog world...get it done alone! to me, coon huntin aint a team sport!

maybe UKC should make it a team sport? lol 4 dog casts competing against other 4 dog casts...

good example...your FAST dog isnt nearly as accurate as my slower dog...but because its faster to strike and tree and "compete" its the better dog??? i dont think so!

on the score card or with the 22 a dog with a brain is gunna win....

maybe my idea of "independent" is different than y'alls and is why im having a hard time with this subject lol...maybe my dogs aint independent they are just smart....lol..

Oh I think we would feed each others dogs. Mine won't waist no time finding there own coon if you dump them alone. They may or may not tree together. Most of the time they do becouse I dump them on creeks and strike a coon in a few seconds. So that puts them on the same coon. But they do there own work all the way. If not they wouldn't loose the lead to the other.
I do dump them by them selves a lot or with my pup that hasn't really started yet.

Posted by mauser06 on 03-16-2012 07:31 AM:

sounds like id feed yours too!

i hunt the same way...i can cut a dog on a good nite and know it should strike a track real quick...

but on casts theres no tellin...for whatever reason the guide doesnt turn loose where i personally would...and a lot of times im at the hunts when the weather isnt the best and coon arent movin great...

i think mine end up straying from the pack because of how i hunt and train...i hunt a bunch of smaller wood lots...they learn how to hunt a woods..not run down to trail or whatever we cut them on...but if they gotta go yonder or can smell one across the field or whatever, they know to go to it...

weve cut em a bunch to have the pack go and get struck deep while mine went 100yds and fell treed...winded it..crossed the track...wanted to go hunting that direction for whatever reason..who knows...had that happen one nite..i dont remember if the other dogs got struck before i had her treed...she didnt go but 50yds...we could see she was on a sapling...some of the guys got excited and actually laughing out loud...we couldnt see the top of the tree from the field we were standing in....wasnt so funny when she had a coon and was being re-casted LoL...

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Posted by l.lyle on 03-16-2012 07:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
i dont like my dogs backing others because ive seen enough slick trees with the pack dogs...sure the dogs i hunt miss here n there...i rather they miss on their own than back another or the pack...
QUOTE

That is not backing. That is me tooing. There is a big differance. Just becouse they go honor another dog and get on the same track doesn't meen they shouldn't do there own work and I wouldn't have one that wouldn't. They are supose to check to see if there is a track leaveing that tree before they settle and tree on it.

Exactly!!! that is what Mee Toooing is. NOT.
Backing is a dog that did not get there first. Like Pointers are expected to do ; and if they don't, they are minussed. I have ten times more confidence walking to a tree my pup treed on before his mentor got there if his mentorcomes in and is yakking it up too.
Really . What is a stupid puppy supposed to know? What his genes and glossy ads and titles that you know dangum well you got Suckered For , is producing ? A puppy first tree; backed or not backed, by a dog with 300 notches under his belt? Get Real.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 03-16-2012 02:25 PM:

The issue I was bringing up, wasn't about "backing" or "me-tooing" it was simply two dogs working the same track and one of them being a little better at lining it out and getting it treed. If two dogs are working the same track and both reach the same conclusion, that's not me-tooing, that's just one dog getting beat. I realize this is hard to tell apart, as some dogs are me-too dogs, but is the solution to breed or train for a dog to quit it's track as soon as it gets beat and go find another one??? Or what I beleive to be even worst... a dog that will blow past coon, to find their own that they can run slowly, but are all by themself?

I took a "newby" out the other night and we saw coon sitting up on a fence row. We cut in that direction and watched those dogs blow right past them "horse-racing" to the woods. They all got struck and split treed quickly, with coon, but it was sure difficult to explain to the novice, why those dogs ran right past those coon in front of us!

Perhpas the sport has just evolved, like many others. For example, you don't have to be a fast runner in baseball or be able to strategically place your hit, if you can pump up the muscles and just knock them all into the stands. And you don't have to be a good shot in basketball, if you can just drive and jump over everyone!

I don't know... it just seems like there should be a balance where a good dog can just beat another dog on a track right in front of them, as opposed to be taught to "go deep" and get your own. and a not so good dog, with a lessor nose, can just get beat without calling it a no account me-tooer.

David Schmidt

Posted by deschmidt27 on 03-16-2012 03:04 PM:

Mauser06 made a good point, that I almost missed, of course it would really change the way time-outs were handled, and when you can and can't cut loose with other dogs working, but how about all trees scored in the order in which they occur, regardless of split tree???

I'm not making this recommendation to UKC, but just for conversation purposes... if the goal is seeing who can tree a coon the quickest, why not score trees that way. Otherwise aren't we rewarding a dog the same as another even though one did it quickly and the other one maybe took forever, and did it a mile away?!?

When you compare this to "pleasure hunting" or the sport of harvesting game... the goal is to tree coon and do so in a timely fashion. What we've done is to award the dog that get's struck first more than the others, but have then said, you can take your time as long as you go get off by yourself. In fact, you can take all night to tree that one coon, as long as its on the outside, and if the other dogs are quickly treeing dens, you can still win! Or sadi another way, you can tear up the whole woods boohooing, forcing all the coon into dens, for our dogs to tree on, and just eventually go find one on the outside and you'll be fine!?!

David Schmidt

Posted by bricklayer on 03-16-2012 04:29 PM:

competition nite hunts truthfully has really kept the sport of coonhunting alive...hide prices are down..if it were not for competitive nite hunting....many guy's wouldn't bother.
That is both a good thing and a bad thing....It's good that coonhunting is still popular.
It's bad that so many are only intrested in winning, and could care less how they do it as long as they win.
The guy that promotes a dog that's quick as lighting but only 60% accurate when the leaves are off....really only cares about the win.....The dog is fast enough to strike and tree first...luck of the draw will award him enough coon to win.
A guy that has a dog that's both quick and accurate...now he got something.
You either have the total package...or you don't have anything.
I'm not joking when i say my daughter has a jack russell , poodle mix that will track and tree a hot coon and flat fly's through the woods.
I was telling a coonhunting buddy about it...he ;laughed and wanted me to take her along sometime...so one night i did.
He got a real kick out of her..his exact words and i quote.."she hunts like a freaking walker"

ive said it before....is it that she hunts like a walker?...or have ( SOME)...walkers been bred to hunt like her?
I put the word some in there....cause ive hunted with some VERY good walkers.

Posted by bluetickman2002 on 03-16-2012 06:36 PM:

to helll with the minus points make a new rule if they come up slick scratch em im just a pleasure hunter but my dogs better get as many coon as fast as possible and not make me walk to a tree for nothin or they can go down the road you can have speed and accuracy they need to tree the first coon they come to weather a other dog is there or not and do it fast i have hunted my pleasure dog with a world ch walker and some dogs that finished in the top 20 there is no differance between a good comp dog and a good pleasure dog we all want the same thing tree the most coons as fast as possible a dog doesnt know if he is in a hunt or not the good onesjust get it done me tooers and slick treers dont win the big ones without some creative handling

the final cast in the world hunt every year is it all split trees on the card? NO

Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-16-2012 07:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bluetickman2002
a dog doesnt know if he is in a hunt

I have actually seen a couple that knew the difference. They gave 100% pleasure hunting, but I swear they gave 110% in competition.

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Posted by old ben on 03-16-2012 08:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
I just like going. Id rather cut only one at a time. 2 at most but have cut 3 or 4 or 5 lol...What a cluster!!! Its actually more fun to me to just hunt a couple. We can still cut up and carry on. Plus our dogs might actually learn something.

i am with ya stir the pack up and some extra flavoring lol

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Posted by bricklayer on 03-16-2012 08:15 PM:

i wonder how many big game hunters would hunt a dog regardless of breed ....if they had to walk all that way and find an empty tree 40% of the time....or if there dogs all headed in different directions.....

Posted by Kenny Powers on 03-16-2012 08:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bricklayer
i wonder how many big game hunters would hunt a dog regardless of breed ....if they had to walk all that way and find an empty tree 40% of the time....or if there dogs all headed in different directions.....

?????? mr bricklayer whoever walks to 40% of there trees must be a pleasure hunter ,

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Posted by goodtimekennel on 03-16-2012 08:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bluetickman2002
to helll with the minus points make a new rule if they come up slick scratch em im just a pleasure hunter but my dogs better get as many coon as fast as possible and not make me walk to a tree for nothin or they can go down the road you can have speed and accuracy they need to tree the first coon they come to weather a other dog is there or not and do it fast i have hunted my pleasure dog with a world ch walker and some dogs that finished in the top 20 there is no differance between a good comp dog and a good pleasure dog we all want the same thing tree the most coons as fast as possible a dog doesnt know if he is in a hunt or not the good onesjust get it done me tooers and slick treers dont win the big ones without some creative handling

the final cast in the world hunt every year is it all split trees on the card? NO

EVERY DOG I HAVE HANDLED KNEW WHEN YOU PULLED INTO A CLUB AND THERE WERE OTHER DOGS TIED OUT THE GAME WAS ON AND THEY NORMALY STEP IT UP FROM YOUR DAILY HUNTING AT HOME BY THEMSELVES OR WITH A PUP

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Posted by bricklayer on 03-16-2012 08:34 PM:

big game hunters like 100% accurate stay put tree dogs..they like them to stick together..they know very well which dogs are their top track and tree dogs.
It's thought of as stylish for a pointer to back another pointer...i can't imagine hunting bird dogs if they all headed in opposite directions.
Or beagles whens the last time you heard a group of rabbit hunters praising their dogs because they all headed in separate directions...would be a bit crazy.
And of course us pleasure hunters don't mind if dogs stick together...we can soon tell who got the best dog.

But competition coonhunters...lol...they all seem to want a dog to head off on its own...why ?...so they can get first strike and first tree...lol...i just never could figure that out...of course you get first strike and tree...if their by themselves...they are the only dog on that track!!!....I'd rather the dogs pack together....if my dog isn't fast enough to get first strike or first tree...i'll humbly take the loss and admit i was beat by a better dog.

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