UKC Forums - Rule ?

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-- Rule ? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=489511)

Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-13-2012 03:10 PM:

Big differance between a fence and a trap. The ones I have seen with out a top are two cattle panels high. I still say you would have to know if they were showing the tree or just standing in the trap. Rules say they have to show the tree not be on it.

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 03-13-2012 03:18 PM:

Chew, I agree with your response with one exception. How about the fact that they were "declared" treed? Disregard Rule 8(h)? I'd be inclined to minus their tree points, call time due to the situation at hand and delete their strike points. (delete strike points "if", like you mentioned, they could not get out and were in fact "trapped". I'd score the dog treed on the tree appropriately as well. I don;t buy into any theory of plussing them if the coon is seen in the tree. Fact is the coon was probably munching on the hog bait in the trap at one time. "But"....... yeah "but" gone now.

8(h) is in place for good reason. It protects a few different things. 1) Gives any dogs declared treed before time is called their fair due. 2) It eliminates the variables, or more commonly, the "excuses" of why a dog left tree.

"Coyotes ran them off. Farmer was yelling from the barnyard over there. Cattle were mooing at them from the next field over. There's bee's around this tree. Yep, that's a bee nest, sure is guys. ... He still needs work on handling him at the tree. Scared of yellow cats. Can't have our lights turned on when arriving at the tree."

You agree Chew?

Joey, how would you have scored the situation?

Posted by on 03-13-2012 03:28 PM:

The trap was a cage. No way for the dogs to get out. The tree was a snag with a hole in it.

I dont see anyway that you don't delete the points. The dogs were impeded from competing. You know when UKC interprets these rules all they do is use a little comments sense. We need to do the same. A dog has to be able compete.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-13-2012 03:35 PM:

So it doesn't matter if they were showing the tree from the closest place they could get to the tree?

Posted by on 03-13-2012 03:42 PM:

Allen, I can see minusing them if the 2 caught them and then you found them in the trap. Thats not the case here.

Would you minus them if you were going into the tree and you found the farmer leading them out? Even though the dog had no control over it and they had not been mounted yet. You minus them for mistakes that they or the handler makes. Like I said I understand if they take the minus before you get there and there was no way to prove they were in the trap when it happened but thats not the case here.

With that being said i will score it in the future however you decide it should be

Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-13-2012 04:02 PM:

This was relayed to me and they didn’t know the answer. I told him what I thought but apparently a UKC field rep that was the MOH ruled it another way.

The cast went into a tree that three dogs were declared treed on. When they got there one dog was on a tree and 15 to 20 feet from the tree the other two were caught in a hog trap. How would you score the two in the trap? It had no bearing on the outcome of the cast.

I just want to know what in this makes you minuse the ones in the trap. I don't see how you could decide with the info. given. Not trying to argue but I am haveing to judge every now and then. It was my understanding that the dog just had to show tree or place of refuge.
The above doesn't say if they were standing on the wire of the cage looking at the tree barking or not. They could had seen it in the trap, ran in,the coon ran out and up the tree. Now the dogs triped the trap,can't get out but is looking at the tree barking treed.
They had one on here about a hound standing on a ledge treeing at a coon in a tree at the bottom of the ledge. He couldn't get to the tree but was stareing at the coon straight across from him. I didn't see how it wound up though.

Posted by on 03-13-2012 04:10 PM:

I done see anyway you could score them on the tree. For the same reason you I wouldn't minus them. They couldn't leave. They might have never been there if it wasn't for the trap. We cant score them for what they might of done. The dogs were not allowed to compete because of the trap. The need deleted.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 03-13-2012 04:12 PM:

I wasn't there but I bet we can make it very simple.......

The two dogs in the trap went into the trap via their instinct of smelling or trailing the scent that led them there. Once inside - boom!!!! They triggered the trap door and that's that! Trapped!

They didn't tree any coon that might have been in the area. They were simply trapped! Right?

The part we're dealing with lies within the fact that the handlers had "called" them treed.

Posted by jackbob42 on 03-13-2012 05:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC

The part we're dealing with lies within the fact that the handlers had "called" them treed.

I hate to say it , but I can understand it. LOL
I have , in the past , told other folks when my dog was having trouble getting over a fence.
And one time , we had lost our beagle. When we heard him again , I told the grandson that what we were hearing was his "kennel" bark. Sure enough , when we drove around , we found him in a cage sitting beside a house. The homeowner had put him in there while he went in to call the number on the collar.
So , I guess I could see that folks should know their dogs well enough to know that "something" wasn't right.

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Posted by josh on 03-13-2012 05:14 PM:

I uderstand Allens point of having to do somthing with the "tree" points.....But, I sure have a hard time finding a reason to minus a trapped dog.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 03-13-2012 05:31 PM:

had a situation happen about 25 yrs ago. before i ever heard of a tracking collar.. i was in a nite hunt and my dog struck a track and treed. then the two got him, then he locked up again so i retreed him. then he shut up again and took another minus. we called time out and i looked for him most of the night. drove 2 hrs home as the sun was coming up. when i got home there was a call from a lady who had my dog. so being so tired i had my dad drive me back to get him. i asked the lady when and where she found him, she said about 8:30 last night she came home from going out for supper and when she pulled into the driveway she seen him barking at a hole on the side of her barn so she pulled him in the yard and tied him to the cloths line pole. but then he started to bark again so she brought him in the house. sure wish i could erase all those minus points!!lol true story

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-13-2012 06:13 PM:

What if the tree was inside the trap?
Ok what if the tree was touching the out side of the trap.
Now what if it is 2 ft. from the trap.
Now at what point are they not showing the tree if in all samples they are barking at the tree?
That is what I don't get. Just because they were in a trap doesn't tell you they weren't treeing. Showing end of trail is what they are supose to do.
The guy that put this on here didn't say what they were doing in the trap.
If they were trying to get to the tree, looking at it and bawling at it I don't see how you could minuse them for it.

Posted by smokin-1-mo on 03-13-2012 08:46 PM:

COME ON GUYS ,WE ALL KNOW THEY DESERVE TO BE MINUSED...NO IFS ABOUT IT......NOW I KNOW WHY THERE IS NEVER ANYONE THAT MINUSES OUT ANY MORE......

Posted by Dan Dogs on 03-13-2012 08:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by smokin-1-mo
COME ON GUYS ,WE ALL KNOW THEY DESERVE TO BE MINUSED...NO IFS ABOUT IT......NOW I KNOW WHY THERE IS NEVER ANYONE THAT MINUSES OUT ANY MORE......

i minus out all the time!!

Posted by smokin-1-mo on 03-13-2012 08:52 PM:

IM SORRY....LOL..THATS FUNNY

Posted by Dogcop on 03-13-2012 09:13 PM:

new twist, all dogs struck, A,B and C. A & B are declared treed. C still showing track..wait the 5 go in A & B are in an enclosed trap. Do you minus the strike and tree and recast to C or penalize C the dog opening on track, and call timeout?

As for the first senario I say delete strike and tree on the trapped dogs and move up and score the treed dog. Aparently he was the smartest of the three. he treed and the other 2 got trapped!

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-13-2012 09:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by smokin-1-mo
COME ON GUYS ,WE ALL KNOW THEY DESERVE TO BE MINUSED...NO IFS ABOUT IT......NOW I KNOW WHY THERE IS NEVER ANYONE THAT MINUSES OUT ANY MORE......

Nope I guess you are the all knowing. I have been trying to get it out of some one as to how you would minuse them not knowing if they were showing end of trail or not.
So since you know share with us. What rule says they are minuse for being in a trap while treeing.

Posted by GA DAWG on 03-13-2012 10:29 PM:

How big a trap was it?

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-13-2012 10:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
How big a trap was it?

That is the thing. He doesn't say how big it was,what the dogs were doing inside the trap or nothing else you would have to know to know if they were showing end of trail.
Pretty easy to get a lot of opinions when the trap and what the dogs were doing in the trap is left up to every bodies imagination

Posted by smokin-1-mo on 03-13-2012 10:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Nope I guess you are the all knowing. I have been trying to get it out of some one as to how you would minuse them not knowing if they were showing end of trail or not.
So since you know share with us. What rule says they are minuse for being in a trap while treeing.

IF THERE CAUGHT IN A TRAP AND BEEN DECLARED TREED THATS THE END OF THE TRAIL......MINUSED ..NO BRAINER....AND I THINK YOU KNOW THAT....COMMON SENCE RULE APPLYS....

Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-13-2012 11:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by smokin-1-mo
IF THERE CAUGHT IN A TRAP AND BEEN DECLARED TREED THATS THE END OF THE TRAIL......MINUSED ..NO BRAINER....AND I THINK YOU KNOW THAT....COMMON SENCE RULE APPLYS....

No it isn't common since and I think you know that or should. It depends on what the dogs are doing. If it is the end of the trail and they are treeing from the trap they have showed end of trail per what the rules say they have to do.
I have never had it happen but if the dogs are as close to the tree as they can get and looking at it treeing they should get there points. Now if they can't show end of trail from the trap they would get minused.
If we aren't going to go by the rules we should just throw them out, let the dogs fight at the tree and the last one alive is the winner. LOL

Like I have said before. If it is common since show me the rule saying they can't show end of trail from a trap.

Posted by Skull Bones on 03-14-2012 03:53 AM:

Hounds tree because they are at the end of they're track and can't take it any futher.The only question would be, are they tree'in wrong because of "lack of ability" to take the track any futher or are they tree'in wrong because it's "impossible" to take it any futher?

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-14-2012 04:05 AM:

Skull Bones that is why I think you would have to be there and see more than what has been told.
Was there trees between the trap and the tree the coon was in?
Were the dogs looking at the tree and treeing?
Was it a small trap were they couldn't tree or show the tree?
Was it the only tree in the mile section? LOL
To much stuff unknown.
It is possible for a dog not to be able to get all the way to a tree and still show end of track.
I think your right. It is just haveing to see the situation to know if they were showing end of track or if it was not possible.

If they are they should get there points(if we are going by the rules I have)
If they can't they get minused.
I don't have a horse in this race. I just wanted to know what rule they were going by with no more than what has been told.

Posted by smokin-1-mo on 03-14-2012 04:42 AM:

GRADY....I WILL SAY THIS PUT THE 25.00 DOLLARS UP AND QUESTION IT TAKE IT BACK TO THE CLUB AND SEE WHAT ALL THEM IFS WILL GET YOU....

Posted by tuck@tree on 03-14-2012 04:53 AM:

COME ON GUYS, COUGHT IN A TRAP AIN'T TREEING!!! IF THEY WERE CALLED TREED THEY ARE MINUSES CAUSE THEY AIN'T TREED!! IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW THEY GOT THERE OR HOW THEY R ACTING IN THERE. TRAPPED AIN'T TREED AND THE HANDLERS CALLED THEM AS IF THEY WERE!!! MINUS...TAKE IT LIME A MAN!!!

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