UKC Forums - Simple Question?

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Posted by JustinM on 03-11-2012 05:59 AM:

dog treed in dozer pile, standing fairly close but no one knew the dozer pile was there sounded treed up. Minus dog because he moved left handed a little bit. Retreed, arriving it is clear the dog went from one side of pile to another. leave minus or undo minus??

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Posted by JiM on 03-11-2012 06:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JustinM
dog treed in dozer pile, standing fairly close but no one knew the dozer pile was there sounded treed up. Minus dog because he moved left handed a little bit. Retreed, arriving it is clear the dog went from one side of pile to another. leave minus or undo minus??

There yah go Allen, you opened the floodgates now.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 03-11-2012 11:58 AM:

Yeah its the same wood pile. Only difference is you heard it. Not see it like we did. Id vote about un minusing about like for obama. NO!! Cept the man done ruled on it here lol. The way I see it on the trees. That coon didn't go up both sets of trees. Something missed. More than likely its the loose tree dog. Just saying.

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Posted by Rip on 03-11-2012 02:38 PM:

Todd has said before in a different place that you can correct an OBVIOUS mistake.

We were talking about babbling and the dog fallin treed two seconds after you minus it for babbling. It was OBVIOUSLY not babbling and you shouldn't penalize a dog when you know for a fact it didn't deserve it.

That does not mean you unminus for something that "could" have happened like the dozer pile.

Allan's ruling is consistant with what UKC has always maintained. You can correct obvious mistakes.

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Posted by JiM on 03-11-2012 03:36 PM:

Allens answer sucks.
Go back and read Dawgs question.

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Say we are going in to dogs treed. Dogs are split 60 yards apart. I see one dog leave its tree and go to others. I automatically minus it for leaving for 125 cause its treed in first. It goes back to other tree and is handled there. Soon as I put a light in tree. The tree the dog left falls way over and is laying in other tree.. Obviously scored as one tree but I already minused the dog. In my mind it stays minused. Don't matter what it should stay on one tree. I've talked to a lot of others that said no because its scored as one tree. I can kinda see that to if it was only feet apart.

The call was the right call at the time it was made. Apparently, no one questioned the minus at that time. It isn't until they start shining the tree that someone comes up with the idea that two trees should have been scored as one. Now you back and unminus??? That's a bad idea and a bad call on Allens part. This is no different than having dogs split close together and everyone wants them scored separate till you find out one has a coon and one doesn't. Now the guy with the slick finds connecting limbs and wants it scored as one tree. UKC long ago made it clear that we have to decide one tree or two BEFORE we start the shine time and then stick to that and with good reason. The situation above is no different. Once you open the door for going back and changing things, you will have it in every situation that changes after the fact. Already you got JustinM asking can we go back and change the ruling after they find dog in a dozer pile. This is UKC. You got guys out there that still think the judge breaks a tie on a tree vote. You give them a chance to go back and change, they will be changing everything.
Allen said the answer was yes and no and this was a unique situation. Well this one time it would have been better to back the judges call, right it off as a bad break for the dog and move on as opposed to opening up a whole new can of worms that will cause way too much problem down the road.

Posted by john Duemmer on 03-11-2012 05:46 PM:

I think Allen made a correct call on this situation and i dont see where it opens this big can of worms. Sometimes things unfold where we have a chance to do whats right and fair for a dog in a given situation as opposed to the old BAD BREAK better luck next time thing.

I agree with Jim that the call was correct at the time it was made, and i agree with Allen that at the point where we realize a call was made that was incorrect given the information we now have that it should be corrected.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 03-11-2012 06:22 PM:

It is a bad break. Bad break for Dog B that should have moved up for treeing a coon and be way ahead. Instead its got 75 on tree and loosing and didn't do a thing wrong. Anyhow I've saw this happen twice in the last couple months. May never see it again. One time it was handled one way and the other time the other way.

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Posted by JSTARR on 03-12-2012 03:02 PM:

The decision to score the tree as one has to be made BEFORE shining the tree.

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Posted by Rip on 03-12-2012 05:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JSTARR
The decision to score the tree as one has to be made BEFORE shining the tree.

Yes but UKC has always stated you could correct obvious mistakes.

No different than someone minusing a dog for being away from the hole and then the dog coming out of the hole when you remove the dog blocking the entrance. You don't leave him minused when you see he was in there and you just couldn't see him for the other dogs butt.

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Posted by JiM on 03-12-2012 06:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Say we are going in to dogs treed. Dogs are split 60 yards apart. I see one dog leave its tree and go to others. I automatically minus it for leaving for 125 cause its treed in first. It goes back to other tree and is handled there. Soon as I put a light in tree. The tree the dog left falls way over and is laying in other tree.. Obviously scored as one tree but I already minused the dog. In my mind it stays minused. Don't matter what it should stay on one tree. I've talked to a lot of others that said no because its scored as one tree. I can kinda see that to if it was only feet apart.

Rip, the trees were 60 yards apart. The only obvious mistake was on the part of the dog that left one tree and went more than half the length of a football field to another tree. If we don't minus that and keep it minused till hell freezes over, why are we even scoring them?

Posted by john Duemmer on 03-12-2012 06:54 PM:

I figured the 60 yards was a typo, pretty hard to imagine 2 trees 60 yards apart touchin at the top unless your in california hunting the giant redwoods.

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Posted by Rip on 03-12-2012 07:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Rip, the trees were 60 yards apart. The only obvious mistake was on the part of the dog that left one tree and went more than half the length of a football field to another tree. If we don't minus that and keep it minused till hell freezes over, why are we even scoring them?

Jim, it was 60 feet but in reality if you are scoring it as one tree, like they did, then they made an obvious mistake in minusing the dog no matter how far it was because if you score it as one he never left.

But I do think it was 60 feet not 60 yards LOL. Never seen a tree that was 180 feet tall and it would be more than that due to it being on an angle. The tree would have had to have been longer than that to reach the other tree LOL.

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Posted by WEBBER on 03-12-2012 07:25 PM:

Do you think the dog really knew he was treeing the same coon(s) and therefore on the same tree, or did he pull under pressure?

If he puts his nose on the ground between the 2 trees is he minused or just as long as he's stays within a certain distance from the straight line path between the 2 trees it's OK. What is that distance?

Minus that sucker!

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Posted by kwlucas on 03-12-2012 07:52 PM:

He should be minused according to the original scenario, you made up your mind that it was far enough to be seperate trees when you originally minused him. Like its been stated before you decide if they are together or seperate before you ever start scoring. This same scenario cost me a first place win because I didnt know that at the time.

Posted by JiM on 03-12-2012 09:11 PM:

I am aware that UKC has ruled that a dog can cover two separate trees (apparently without regard to how far apart they are) if they are scored as one. That kind of nonsense is what has lead to us now being allowed to unminus an obviously correct judges decision.
One bad ruling was bound to lead to another bad ruling. But as always, I'll abide by UKC's rules no matter what I personally think of them.

Posted by Rip on 03-13-2012 01:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by WEBBER
Do you think the dog really knew he was treeing the same coon(s) and therefore on the same tree, or did he pull under pressure?

If he puts his nose on the ground between the 2 trees is he minused or just as long as he's stays within a certain distance from the straight line path between the 2 trees it's OK. What is that distance?

Minus that sucker!

Doesn't matter if he puts his nose down or not. No rule that says a dog that puts its nose down is minused. Todd Kellum himself said that. That is just as much a made up rule as "canopy of the tree" rule is. It's just on separate sides. One side makes up the rule to minus a dog and the other side makes it up to protect a dog. There is no canopy of the tree and a dog is not automatically minused for putting it's nose down going back to a tree.

Neither is a rule.

Let me ask you guys that are ready to minus the dog this.

If you walked up on a hole in the ground and seen a dog buried up to his tail in it and you think the other dog that was treed there is gone. You minus that other dog then when the handler pulls the first dog out of the hole low and behold out pops the dog you thought was gone. Would you still minus that dog? It was obvious you were wrong so to do so would be wrong or would you just say "well he's minused he stays minused even though he was here all along".

Just answerer that question. Would you keep him minused after he come out of the hole or not?

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Posted by JiM on 03-13-2012 02:08 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip

Let me ask you guys that are ready to minus the dog this.

If you walked up on a hole in the ground and seen a dog buried up to his tail in it and you think the other dog that was treed there is gone. You minus that other dog then when the handler pulls the first dog out of the hole low and behold out pops the dog you thought was gone. Would you still minus that dog? It was obvious you were wrong so to do so would be wrong or would you just say "well he's minused he stays minused even though he was here all along".

Just answerer that question. Would you keep him minused after he come out of the hole or not?

Rip, why are you even asking that question? Your situation isn't even remotely related to what happened in Dawgs situation. The question involves a dog that left one tree and went to another tree. What does that have to do with a dog in hole?

Posted by john Duemmer on 03-13-2012 02:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Doesn't matter if he puts his nose down or not. No rule that says a dog that puts its nose down is minused. Todd Kellum himself said that. That is just as much a made up rule as "canopy of the tree" rule is. It's just on separate sides. One side makes up the rule to minus a dog and the other side makes it up to protect a dog. There is no canopy of the tree and a dog is not automatically minused for putting it's nose down going back to a tree.

Neither is a rule.

Let me ask you guys that are ready to minus the dog this.

If you walked up on a hole in the ground and seen a dog buried up to his tail in it and you think the other dog that was treed there is gone. You minus that other dog then when the handler pulls the first dog out of the hole low and behold out pops the dog you thought was gone. Would you still minus that dog? It was obvious you were wrong so to do so would be wrong or would you just say "well he's minused he stays minused even though he was here all along".

Just answerer that question. Would you keep him minused after he come out of the hole or not?

Rip. i think your question is very much on point, and shows that if we want to judge fairly that sometimes we have to be able to right a wrong when we learn that a previous call was inacurate. I dont know what is difficult to understand about UKCs ruling that is consistent with scoring two trees as one (ONE AT THE TOP, ONE AT THE BOTTOM)

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-13-2012 02:41 AM:

A better question might be if we have a split tree situation where the trees are joined at the top only a few feet apart and we have a dog bouncing back and forth between the two are we going to minus the dog for moving? of course not. so once you determine that two trees are going to be scored as one in order to be consistent you have to decide are they moving or not.

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Posted by JiM on 03-13-2012 03:24 AM:

You guys can continue to change the situation to make your position right. No problem. 60 feet, 60 yards, whichever, that ain't one tree and to say a dog can cover two trees that far apart perverts the rules. Carry on.

Posted by WEBBER on 03-13-2012 02:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Doesn't matter if he puts his nose down or not. No rule that says a dog that puts its nose down is minused. Todd Kellum himself said that. That is just as much a made up rule as "canopy of the tree" rule is. It's just on separate sides. One side makes up the rule to minus a dog and the other side makes it up to protect a dog. There is no canopy of the tree and a dog is not automatically minused for putting it's nose down going back to a tree.

I agree, hence my smiley face. I get a big laugh every time I hear "the dog put his nose down - minus him". I was trying to make a point. I guess I wasn't clear, neither was GADAWG about what dog A done when he left the tree and went to the other.
All he could tell from 100 yards out is the dog ( I guess he seen the collar's light) was leave the tree and ended up on the other. So let me ask you foks that want to plus this dog. If you were going into the tree (only one tree, one trunk at the bottom and one top not touching another) as DAWG was and seen 1 of the 3 dogs move from the tree 30 yards away, not to meet and greet, but left the tree and then came back would you plus his points if the coon was seen.

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Posted by Rip on 03-13-2012 02:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by WEBBER
I agree, hence my smiley face. I get a big laugh every time I hear "the dog put his nose down - minus him". I was trying to make a point. I guess I wasn't clear, neither was GADAWG about what dog A done when he left the tree and went to the other.
All he could tell from 100 yards out is the dog ( I guess he seen the collar's light) was leave the tree and ended up on the other. So let me ask you foks that want to plus this dog. If you were going into the tree (only one tree, one trunk at the bottom and one top not touching another) as DAWG was and seen 1 of the 3 dogs move from the tree 30 yards away, not to meet and greet, but left the tree and then came back would you plus his points if the coon was seen.

No I would not. I would minus him for being off the tree.

The only reason I would plus the dog in the above situation is that they said they could clearly see that it was to be scored as one tree and therefore the dog was not off tree as was previoiusly thought. I would have to change what I wanted to do though because I would have minused the dog for being off tree too if that's what it looked like on the way in to the tree. Once I seen I was wrong I would have then fixed it.

I try to be as black and white, in the middle as I can. I am not one that is ready to pounce and minus at the drop of a hat and I'm not one to look for "breaks" or "benifit of the doubt" for dogs either. I try to stay right in the middle and use the rules and logic as best I can.

I still mess up but at least I try to be consistant and fair to all LOL.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 03-13-2012 04:34 PM:

I'll minus one. How is anybody to know its one tree. When a dogs moving that's supposed to be treed. It should stay treed! I can always go back and change it but if I go in and here comes this dog from the side. Smells up tree barking and runs back to its tree. Im putting the - to it. Also the answer I got in the other Kc which it was. Was not the same answer as I got here.

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