UKC Forums - make redtick its own breed

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- make redtick its own breed (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=488411)

Posted by Morgan Richard on 03-07-2012 06:38 PM:

Never under estimate stupidity. If i would have wanted to hear an @$$hole talk i woulda farted..

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Posted by groworg1 on 03-07-2012 08:02 PM:

i've seen plenty of walkers all ticked up and some english with no ticks we blew it when stopped breeding coondog to coondog to get coondog and started breeding for many different reasons color,size,voice,coat,head up or down,tree,track and the list goes on and on we screwed up should be one breed (american coondog) with all records kept instead of a little bird dog or collie or whatever snuck in along the way to change breed with no true records kept !!!

Posted by I speak English on 03-07-2012 08:03 PM:

Leave it alone

What UKC did back in 1945 & 46 was crazy back then & now you want to split them up evan more. Why dont you go tell all the Lab people to make each color a defferent bread & see what they say.

Posted by niterage727 on 03-07-2012 11:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by english1
Heres the thing the guy that started this post thinks that english that are not Redtick colored are a crossbreed. I have been goin round and round with him on some other sites. He thinks that the blue ones have to have bluetick in them and the black and white ones Have walker in them. He dont seem to understand that all english hounds have the genes to produce every color allowed. Even if they are both redticks. He is a walker hunter. For some reason he thinks that the english of today are still a bunch of single registered mix breeds. If they are not REDTICK.

now tell they story right,i do think redtick should have thier own breed as i do english. and i do think most if not all english including redticks are mixed.tell me,where did the tricolor come from? almost evey english site u go to the front page pic is a redtick.the tricolor i would guess comes from something other than english.u show me a registered tri colored english from when this all started and i will shut up,until the the only tricolor ive seen is walker blood such as nailor,rock river cord,clover,eaglet and so on.

way back when all were mixbreeds but that was long ago. honestly they are still but improvments have been established in certain breeds.other than the english.to make fullblooded dogs.let me ask this question. a english cannot be registered as a walker unless it looks like a walker,an english cant be registered as a bluetick unless it looks like a bluetick,why in the world is it right to register a walker as an english? dont say it hardly happens nows days,i can name off 4 walker studs off the top of my head not counting the [unknowns].dont say its to better the breed either cuz if thats the case if they are breeding to walkers to get better dogs it would be easier to hunt walkers.face it guys,the english breed is stealing blood from walkers and therefore making them crossbred hounds.i guess thats one way to keep up with a walker,if u cant beatem,joinem lol

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Posted by dsodshounds on 03-08-2012 05:42 AM:

senseless people would start culling blue english pups and breed only for red. Most of my litters produce 50 50 red and blue. And some of my best hounds have been and are blue english dogs.

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Posted by Justin B on 03-08-2012 11:09 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by niterage727
[B]now tell they story right,i do think redtick should have thier own breed as i do english. and i do think most if not all english including redticks are mixed.tell me,where did the tricolor come from?

You know a puprple ribbon bred dog has known ancestors for many generations. They don't give this to a single registered dog. So a PR english dog is not mixed. Redtick is the most popular color so more people breed for it just like people like blanket back walkers and there are more of them. Should we make open spotted or black and white walkers a different breed? I don't think so. The tri color comes from the english breed not walkers. There have been tri-colored english dogs for many years. Walkers were developed from them anyway. I hunt walkers but i really think this is a ridiculous idea.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-08-2012 11:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by niterage727
now tell they story right,i do think redtick should have thier own breed as i do english. and i do think most if not all english including redticks are mixed.tell me,where did the tricolor come from? almost evey english site u go to the front page pic is a redtick.the tricolor i would guess comes from something other than english.u show me a registered tri colored english from when this all started and i will shut up,until the the only tricolor ive seen is walker blood such as nailor,rock river cord,clover,eaglet and so on.

way back when all were mixbreeds but that was long ago. honestly they are still but improvments have been established in certain breeds.other than the english.to make fullblooded dogs.let me ask this question. a english cannot be registered as a walker unless it looks like a walker,an english cant be registered as a bluetick unless it looks like a bluetick,why in the world is it right to register a walker as an english? dont say it hardly happens nows days,i can name off 4 walker studs off the top of my head not counting the [unknowns].dont say its to better the breed either cuz if thats the case if they are breeding to walkers to get better dogs it would be easier to hunt walkers.face it guys,the english breed is stealing blood from walkers and therefore making them crossbred hounds.i guess thats one way to keep up with a walker,if u cant beatem,joinem lol

You have the whole thing backwards....... I had english dogs back in the 60s and 70s and at that time a litter of PR. bred pups would usually have a mix of blues reds and open spotted ticked up pups. redticks were around but not common. As redticks became the popular color people started breeding more redtick dogs and they became more common, but to assume that an english pups color comes from blueticks because its blue or walker because its open spotted is wrong. The english breed wasnt a color specific breed like the bluetick or redbone but because they can be any color does not mean they are not pure english.

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Posted by I speak English on 03-08-2012 11:43 PM:

HISTORY LESSON!

i do think redtick should have thier own breed as i do english. and i do think most if not all english including redticks are mixed.tell me,where did the tricolor come from? almost evey english site u go to the front page pic is a redtick.the tricolor i would guess comes from something other than english.u show me a registered tri colored english from when this all started and i will shut up,until the the only tricolor ive seen is walker blood such as nailor,rock river cord,clover,eaglet and so on.

way back when all were mixbreeds but that was long ago. honestly they are still but improvments have been established in certain breeds.other than the english.to make fullblooded dogs.let me ask this question. a english cannot be registered as a walker unless it looks like a walker,an english cant be registered as a bluetick unless it looks like a bluetick,why in the world is it right to register a walker as an english? dont say it hardly happens nows days,i can name off 4 walker studs off the top of my head not counting the [unknowns].dont say its to better the breed either cuz if thats the case if they are breeding to walkers to get better dogs it would be easier to hunt walkers.face it guys,the english breed is stealing blood from walkers and therefore making them crossbred hounds.i guess thats one way to keep up with a walker,if u cant beatem,joinem lol [/B][/QUOTE]

Do you mean way back when they all were English? If you remember Walker seperated from the English breed in 1945 & Blue Ticks a year later. Just because of there color alone.Thats why there's Tri-color today. So therefore you can't single reg a Red Tick or a Blu to a TW.
George Washington had a pack of Eng brought over from England in 1742 & bred them to French Blu Gascons that he received from General Lafayette. So that's where we get the Blu.
The reason you see Walkers everywhere is because they are a dime a dozen. Just look at the TW Top Producing Males, all 10 of them have over 1500 reg pups. 1 of them had 3825 pups, and 7 had over 2000. The Eng Males only 2 have over 1500 pups. The rest are well under 1000. I would love to see the #'s of UKC reg TW. to the ENG. I'm not a big gambler but I would be willing to bet that there is a VERY LARGE MARGIN between the 2 of them.
And just for the record I do like Walker Dogs.

Posted by Geminite on 03-09-2012 12:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by niterage727
face it guys,the english breed is stealing blood from walkers and therefore making them crossbred hounds.i guess thats one way to keep up with a walker,if u cant beatem,joinem lol

You are joking, right? LOL

This is entertaining!!

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Posted by OH English on 03-09-2012 12:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Geminite
You are joking, right? LOL

This is entertaining!!

You're right, this is very entertaining!!!! Some peoples children. I didn't know people still had this level of stupidity these days

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Posted by Gentry's English on 03-09-2012 01:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by OH English
You're right, this is very entertaining!!!! Some peoples children. I didn't know people still had this level of stupidity these days

LOL......... To bad you cant cull some people like you can dogs. If we could we might be able to better our selfs........ LOL

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Posted by branchvillekell on 03-09-2012 04:18 PM:

gonna ressurect a hornet's nest. yes, i do believe there should be a color standard on an english. you can look into a ring or a hunt and not know what it is. you have to ask.
i am sure that all dogs have a cross breeding in their background. why do we keep it up with the english? because everyone with a hound with colors that can't produce a solid color to their specific breed can register as an english.
i think that the english should be specifically registered. period.
my mom, whom has been a coonhounder since the day and never owned one, has declared this also. you never know what it is until you ask.
yes , it will take a couple of years to weed out the non- standards, maybe they can single reg. as a blue or a walker, or whatever but not an english.
for the man about the lab's. you can breed a yellow to a chocolate, but you cannot, i repeat cannot, have a combination of the two, coat colors that is. either yellow, black or chocolate. they have a breed standard of color also , just like any other breed they have perfected.
just like the leopard hound or the plott.
i dont believe in a breed that has a lump sum of the non color configurations that it should be the dumping of whatever non color hounds that dont apply to a breed standard to be dumped into the english breed.
obviously, i have an english. with a blue dam. i will take my chances.
with all the talk on here about how far we have come as coonhunters and breeders of coonhounds that everyone will selectively breed any colored pup to the hunting hound of choice that will sell pups because you can always register it as an english.
this is a long time coming,
kell
ps, did anyone see the rotten representation of an english at westminster??????/
I DID. i was appalled my breed was represented like that. no matter what the background.

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Posted by amazingcursouth on 03-09-2012 05:28 PM:

Hooch...nuff said...crossbred ENGLISH or Redtick.

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Posted by branchvillekell on 03-09-2012 05:42 PM:

thank you steve, you know about the english breed (? , the question in the making) and the gascon.

kelley
ps, i think the english need alot more respect ( color of coat, breed standard ) than it is getting now.

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Posted by branchvillekell on 03-09-2012 05:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by amazingcursouth
Hooch...nuff said...crossbred ENGLISH or Redtick.

now, the crossbred english would be anything going. the english, would be a redtick.
kelley

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Posted by Geminite on 03-09-2012 05:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by branchvillekell
gonna ressurect a hornet's nest. yes, i do believe there should be a color standard on an english. you can look into a ring or a hunt and not know what it is. you have to ask.
i am sure that all dogs have a cross breeding in their background. why do we keep it up with the english? because everyone with a hound with colors that can't produce a solid color to their specific breed can register as an english.
i think that the english should be specifically registered. period.
my mom, whom has been a coonhounder since the day and never owned one, has declared this also. you never know what it is until you ask.
yes , it will take a couple of years to weed out the non- standards, maybe they can single reg. as a blue or a walker, or whatever but not an english.
for the man about the lab's. you can breed a yellow to a chocolate, but you cannot, i repeat cannot, have a combination of the two, coat colors that is. either yellow, black or chocolate. they have a breed standard of color also , just like any other breed they have perfected.
just like the leopard hound or the plott.
i dont believe in a breed that has a lump sum of the non color configurations that it should be the dumping of whatever non color hounds that dont apply to a breed standard to be dumped into the english breed.
obviously, i have an english. with a blue dam. i will take my chances.
with all the talk on here about how far we have come as coonhunters and breeders of coonhounds that everyone will selectively breed any colored pup to the hunting hound of choice that will sell pups because you can always register it as an english.
this is a long time coming,
kell
ps, did anyone see the rotten representation of an english at westminster??????/
I DID. i was appalled my breed was represented like that. no matter what the background.

WTH are you talking about? GINN? She's a gorgeous representation!!

The English Coonhound DOES have a STANDARD! It includes;

"Redtick, bluetick, tri color with ticking, white and red, white and black, white and lemon."

Now check out the Treeing Walker, for example.

"Tri-colored (white-black-tan) is preferred. White may be the predominant color, with black spots and tan trim; or black may be the predominant color with white markings and tan trim, such as saddle back, or blanket back. White with tan spots, or white with black spots is acceptable."

A black and white WALKER is no less acceptable than a Tri-color. Just the same goes for a blue ticked English. They ARE ACCEPTABLE and just as PURE!

You can breed two SOLID BRINDLE Plotts and come out with SOLID BUCKSKIN puppies!!! The pups are pure non the less. (Just not acceptable, which is total bs. ITs that way because of people BREEDING FOR COLOR INSTEAD OF PERFORMANCE!!!!)

Sorry for ranting! Just couldn't take it anymore.

Posted by branchvillekell on 03-09-2012 07:08 PM:

first of all, she was not a gorgeous rep. of the english breed. the head was sloped like no tomorrow. no stop.
the english standard, as i stated above, does include everything but a cur. but, maybe still.
the plott, as you stated does include 2 color reps. and then an alternative that may or may not be desirable.

pure by one standard may not be the breed standard if breeding for specifics. coloration being the specific.

poodles, black, white and apricot. not mottling nor brindles of the variety.

i have been in this dog breeding and showing alot of years. check breed standards and coloration to be exact.

kelley

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Posted by Geminite on 03-09-2012 07:41 PM:

You are completely missing my point but whatever. And Ginn does meet the standard, IMO to a tee. But no one asked me.

Posted by Geminite on 03-09-2012 07:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by branchvillekell

i have been in this dog breeding and showing alot of years. check breed standards and coloration to be exact.

kelley

I quoted the breed standards for color directly from UKC's website.

If you have a black and white walker, it is WITHIN BREED STANDARDS.

If you have a blue ticked English, it is WITHIN BREED STANDARDS.

Also quoted from the UKC Standard for ENGLISH COONHOUNDS.

"The variation in color is another aspect of English Coonhound history. Both the Treeing Walker and the Bluetick Coonhound were originally registered with UKC as English. The Walker was recognized as a separate breed in 1945, and the Bluetick a year later. There are still tri-colored and blueticked English hounds, though redticked dogs dominate in the breed today."

They meet the standard, so why fix something that's not broken? Breeding SOLEY for COLOR is NOT A GOOD THING. Oh I'm not gonna breed that super nice coon treein' Blue english bitch because she's not red ticked....and BOOM no Skeet!

Get what I'm sayin?

Posted by amazingcursouth on 03-09-2012 07:53 PM:

but when you have cross bred dogs that have been registered to a certain breed then you have it in the gene pool. which i think is an awesome thing to keep things going in any breed. hard time speck was in fact a walker. i have had walkers that were heavy specked. i don't think you will ever see a REDTICK as a breed alone. but what do i know...i hunt treeing curs....hound cur crossed

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Posted by branchvillekell on 03-09-2012 08:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Geminite
You are completely missing my point but whatever. And Ginn does meet the standard, IMO to a tee. But no one asked me.

i never missed the point, maybe we are on two totally different pages. i want the english to have a specific color reg. just so they are identifiable to the average. obviously you have an eye for all.
that english was one of the worst reps of the breed i have ever seen.
i have been in akc all of my life, just like you in ukc. the rules are changed. i want to better the english breed.
so well, i wouldnt have a skeet if i didnt want a coonhound. i didnt go intentionally to buy an english, just what i fell in love with. just like you and your plotts.
so, what happens when your plotts are throwing half white pups????? not in the color standard but out of great parents. what then. so what????? i know you had an english. blue, black, red, white and plott.
get my point?????

the gene pool of most coonhounds are not sigularized to one breed, but one color if you want to register. have you ever seen a black white and blue tan????????????
kelley

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Posted by amazingcursouth on 03-09-2012 08:37 PM:

LINE BREED YOU OWN STRAIN OR FROM SOMEONE ELSES.....then you can be like most other breeds of dogs...

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Posted by branchvillekell on 03-09-2012 08:44 PM:

yes sir i will cur south, that is why i have only one cur that is neutered.
i cant wait until the breed standard, which is so vague on coloration for english reads: any coloration possible even brindles or merles.

by the way also, my english was line bred. to the best.

kelley

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Posted by Geminite on 03-09-2012 08:45 PM:

I didn't think my eyesight was all that terrible but it must be.

The UKC representation of the standard.

CCH AKC CH PR Alexander's Color Me Bad Ginn.

Pretty dang close.

But then again I haven't been involved with AKC for years. I went over the UKC breed standard, comparing it to this photo for each part of the body. Fits it pretty well, IMO.

I just hate to see you bash on this dog, when there's obviously nothing to bash on...

Ima bow out of this one for now, have my own opinion and no one has to agree with it. Same as you have yours.

Posted by Geminite on 03-09-2012 08:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by branchvillekell
so, what happens when your plotts are throwing half white pups????? not in the color standard but out of great parents.

They aren't within the standard.

Blue ticked english are within the English standard, so I don't see how that would apply here?

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