UKC Forums - Question about Concealed Weapons and UKC hunts

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 01-23-2012 06:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
todd kellam
UKC Moderator
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
Posts: 4312

United Kennel Club respects, defends and even encourages your right to lawful concealed carry. We have no restrictions towards lawful concealed carry. Our no guns policy is primarily directed towards 1) gun trading on the grounds during an event 2) open carry on casts 3) unlawful carry at any time 4) to a lesser degree having rifles in vehicles on a cast. We don't go so far as to search trucks but would take action against illegal transport because it could jeopardize the issue of state permits to conduct nite hunts.

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01-19-2011 02:31 PM

Thanks for reminding me Tom T.

I don't really care if we do or don't but one man saying certain people can when the rules says other wise is not the way to go. It is lawful to have one in your truck in Okla. We are getting more and more hogs and I cary any time I go to the woods except in the hunts. I DO NOT MEAN ANY DISRESPECT TO TODD but it is a club there are rules and if you are going to allow it in certain cases then the rules should say that.
I about got in troble for haveing a hunting knife with me and was told I had to leave it in the truck. I was taught at a very young age to allways have one in case I got hung up in a trot line crossing a creek or river. Doesn't make much since to me to be able to carry a gun but not a knife with a fixed blade. I like a machete my self. You can cut your self free if need be or cut a switch for a dog in a hury too. LOL

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Posted by stsjts on 01-23-2012 01:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wildbill
wouldnt you feel safer knowing someone on your cast had a legal consealed carry if some idit started shooting at you and your dogs if you happened to unknowing got to close to their meth lab/cash crop field,,,i know i would..

if your scared of someone with a legal consealed carry permit being on your cast,you all might as well stay home ,

cause the person on your cast with the illegal gun in his pocket and a short fuse would be more scary than haveing the legal person along..

for those that dont know it,,the person with the legal carry has gone thru a FBI/investagation and more likely to remain more stable in a bad situation,

than the nutcase always trying to have things his way

so if all the nutcases are made aware that their may be legal consealed carrying people on the property then they would be less likely to do something stupid..,,

the term is "consealed",
what you dont know could save your life someday.

anybody flashing his gun and bragging about it to scare people is breaking the law and should be reported to the law,,

I support the right. Never said i was scared of somebody on a cast that had one. I just figured it wasnt a big deal to leave ur gun in the truck if u had to. Maybe hunting in ur neck of the woods is rougher than mine. I hunt all the time with no firearm at all.

Posted by smokin-1-mo on 01-23-2012 01:48 PM:

has this really turned into this big of a issue at the hunts ............to me it has not ..

Posted by JiM on 01-23-2012 02:55 PM:

Chuck, it's a message board. We love to obsess about things we have never actually seen.

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Posted by Fred Harroun on 01-23-2012 03:00 PM:

DING DING DING we have a winner.Jim best post yet on this subject

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Posted by JiM on 01-23-2012 03:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg

I about got in troble for haveing a hunting knife with me and was told I had to leave it in the truck.

This one really bothers me though.
I've never been one for getting chitty with people but I'm very sure about the time someone tries to tell me I can't carry my knife on a cast is about the time I'm gona be telling them to go impregnate them self.

Posted by Fred Harroun on 01-23-2012 03:34 PM:

im like jim,who dont carry a knife with them.all coonhunters carry knives

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Posted by Pastor Mike on 01-23-2012 04:37 PM:

thanks guys for the responses. This was just an interesting question that came up in our cast and I was just curious as to what the answer would be.

I bet it would be very confusing even on the state level, game wardens would probably say one thing and troopers and county sheriff's would probably say something else. We do have the right to carry concealed weapons in virginia.

thanks again.

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Posted by Timberdog English on 01-23-2012 04:38 PM:

SHOTS FIRED

ON A CAST IN VA,DOGS ON LEASH TIME OUT CALLED, LAND OWNER WITH RIFLE,GET OFF MY PROPERTY OR I WILL SHOOT,SIR WE HAVE NO GUN ALL WE HAVE IS A SCORECARD,BANG,WORKS THE BOLT AGAIN , WE APOLOGIZE AND LEAVE HELPLESS FEELING HE WENT TO JAIL,HAND GUN PERMIT IN MY POCKET GUN IN TRUCK MUD ON MY FACE FROM GUN SHOT,HE WAS GOING TO SHOOT THEM DOGS WE GOT THERE FIRST PROTECT YOURSELF I MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN HERE TO TELL THIS OR ONE OF THE FOUR CAST MEMBERS,FEB TRIAL WILL POST OUTCOME

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Posted by Ricky L Hovis on 01-23-2012 08:12 PM:

Would love to have the complete details and possibly the report on this. Who brought the charges out, game warden, deputy, or did you swear them out at magistrates office. We have had things like this happen in my neck of the woods. Please PM me with details if you have the time.

Thanks,

Posted by wildbill on 01-24-2012 02:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by stsjts
I support the right. Never said i was scared of somebody on a cast that had one. I just figured it wasnt a big deal to leave ur gun in the truck if u had to. Maybe hunting in ur neck of the woods is rougher than mine. I hunt all the time with no firearm at all.

with the yotes around here ,i keep a gun on me in the woods all the time ,and with the wolves moveing into ohio from mi. thats another thing..
as for as on a cast,i dont remember haveing any trouble with people getting rough,but i'm big enough that discourges any idea of that starting,plus most people that know me know i'm your best friend till u get stupid and then its not going to be nice..

and no way would i leave a gun in the truck for someone to break in and steal,thats double trouble..

back in the day i used to carry a 25 auto in my pocket all the time,only 1 time did anyone ever know i was carrying at a hunt and that was when we were coming out of the woods and someone started shooting near my aunts house about 300 yrds from us,i put myself between the hunters and where the gunfire was coming from and got them out of there ,

nobody but the guy i give directions to, knew i was carrying and he didnt know what ,but he knew i was covering their back if anything happened ..
i have a legal ccp now so i'm legal in most of ohio,but like the guy said dont ask dont tell and everybody just have fun

law says consealed carry so
if there isnt any trouble like getting to close to somebodys meth lab ,
aint nobody should know anything about who is or isnt carrying..

never heard anything about a knife rule,,lol,
i dont know any hunter that dont carry some kind of pocket knife

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Posted by starplott on 01-24-2012 03:43 AM:

If I know a handler has a firearm concealed, he had better have his permit on him, I won't have an issue w/ it.

BUT, the FIRST time that gun is unholstered or seen on a cast...bye bye. CWP is one thing. Having an open weapon is another. If I am MOH, or in a cast we are all good until that piece comes out in the open. Once that piece is in plain view, I will scratch/write up for carrying an open fire arm and Todd can sort it all out later.

We have kids on hunts. The rules state and Todd has put in writing no open firearms. If you have a CWP and carry a firearm to/on the hunts and keep it concealed (no matter how many people know you have it) I am 100% supportive of that. Unholster it and you will get a quick point to the door and very limited time to get gone.

Just because somebody has a CWP...does not give somebody the right to unholster it any time or place or for any reason. Just gives them the right to carry it concealed. CWP holders are STILL expected to abide by other state laws pertaining to display of a fire arm, etc. You cannot legally pull your concealed weapon out at Walmart and hand it to your buddy to admire here. Nobody is going to get away with such at a nite hunt either. That is blatant disrespect and irresponsible, often illegal to boot.

In looking at the spirit of the laws and rules, THINK! Would you pull your piece out at Dennys? NO. Then leave it concealed at a hunt...that way there is no question or problems.

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Posted by starplott on 01-24-2012 03:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by The Seeker
This to me is a funny thread. How many people can tell me how many times they were on a hunt (UKC) with someone that was carrying concealed. That is why on the other thread I responded Don't ask, don't tell. I am a MOH should I ask "do you have a gun on you" before they can enter?

Carrying a concealed weapon with permit and following the laws that allow for such is perfectly legal. I don't question as a MOH unless I am aware of somebody packing. My ONLY concern is that person HAS his permit on their person (which is law in most places) and that piece is to be kept concealed. Lecture for the protection of the CWP holder.

I know how guys bitch and whine at hunts. I DON'T want to see any issues regarding the CWP holder. I'm VERY protective over our right to carry! It doesn't take but a few idiots and it could cause issues for the rest of us.

It is just nice to know who is packing on a cast. That way I know who NOT to stand next to if a problem should arise. Want to make sure who has the gun has a good shot, I'll just distract the idiot at the other end of the barrel. (usually one standing closest to guy with gun that gets shot, LOL)

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Posted by wildbill on 01-24-2012 04:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by starplott
Carrying a concealed weapon with permit and following the laws that allow for such is perfectly legal. I don't question as a MOH unless I am aware of somebody packing. My ONLY concern is that person HAS his permit on their person (which is law in most places) and that piece is to be kept concealed. Lecture for the protection of the CWP holder.

I know how guys bitch and whine at hunts. I DON'T want to see any issues regarding the CWP holder. I'm VERY protective over our right to carry! It doesn't take but a few idiots and it could cause issues for the rest of us.

It is just nice to know who is packing on a cast. That way I know who NOT to stand next to if a problem should arise. Want to make sure who has the gun has a good shot, I'll just distract the idiot at the other end of the barrel. (usually one standing closest to guy with gun that gets shot, LOL)

agree with everything you said,,
unless there is reason for a gun to be seen for the protection of the group,it should not be seen,

if a person wants someone to see his gun at a hunt or denny's he should be carrying a picture of it,lol

unless someone knows what to look for or does something deadly stupid,they will never see/know what i might be carrying
as it should be..

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Posted by copperheadcreek on 01-24-2012 05:42 AM:

ok here is my problem with this whole situation, i understand the concept of ccp, BUT in most states it IS lawful to cary a handgun on your person in plain sight. so if ukc is ok to allow people with a ccp to carry thier pistol with them, then ukc also needs to allow people to carry thier guns on thier person at hunts or ukc sanctioned eventsas long as the state in which the hunt is being held allows this. if you allow 1 person then you need to allow everyone. OR just uphold the rule as it is written NO GUNS ALLOWED.... no exceptions, period.... mike

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Posted by starplott on 01-24-2012 06:32 AM:

There's a difference between plain sight carry and conceal carry. To me they are NOT the same. Not even close. An open carry does not require training, licensing, and just requires over legal age and no felony/dv convictions. Open carry, any idiot can carry.

CWP requires background check at bare minimum, most states require some sort of training and proficiency with understanding the rights and laws. Guns are not in plain view (intimidation factor). Not all states allow open carry or carrying a loaded weapon without a CWP.

I'm sorry, but CWP carries more clout. Somebody went through the process to obtain and adherence to the laws and responsibilities is usually first priority. CWP also means the person has no legal issues/history AND HAS BEEN BACKGROUND CHECKED for such. Open carry, who knows...there's no credibility there. Truth be told, unless you run a background check, you do not know if the person is legally prohibited to own/carry a firearm.

Unless you want to background check everybody who open carries...you could be allowing somebody to be committing a felony right in front of you.

So in my book, conceal carry w/ permit is legal. Open carry...is shady. Why would anybody open carry when they would qualify for a CWP? From a protection point...I'd rather conceal than open carry. That element of surprise goes a long ways.

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Posted by copperheadcreek on 01-24-2012 02:26 PM:

we are not talking about protection, we are talking about ukc events, if you allow 1 then you have to all both .

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Posted by starplott on 01-24-2012 03:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by copperheadcreek
we are not talking about protection, we are talking about ukc events, if you allow 1 then you have to all both .

No kidding? LOL. Do you REALLY need a message board where we draw pictures?

Conceal carry and open carry are NOT one in the same, they are different (which means NOT equal). UKC does NOT have nor should they accept open carry unless every person who open carries has a background check on them! (which UKC cannot do) Without a background check on EVERY person who open carries you have NO clue if they are even legally able to open carry as the open carry law DOES NOT apply to everyone, there are VERY clear exceptions.

Come on, it cannot be put any simpler than that w/o crayons... I'm not the only one who has made this point.

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Posted by mike bennett on 01-24-2012 04:22 PM:

In Arkansas a sign must be posted prohibiting firearms or by law you can carry if you have a permit. That's the law nothing to do with UKC. Hello lawyers!!

Posted by Okie Dawg on 01-24-2012 04:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by starplott
Carrying a concealed weapon with permit and following the laws that allow for such is perfectly legal. I don't question as a MOH unless I am aware of somebody packing. My ONLY concern is that person HAS his permit on their person (which is law in most places) and that piece is to be kept concealed. Lecture for the protection of the CWP holder.

I know how guys bitch and whine at hunts. I DON'T want to see any issues regarding the CWP holder. I'm VERY protective over our right to carry! It doesn't take but a few idiots and it could cause issues for the rest of us.

It is just nice to know who is packing on a cast. That way I know who NOT to stand next to if a problem should arise. Want to make sure who has the gun has a good shot, I'll just distract the idiot at the other end of the barrel. (usually one standing closest to guy with gun that gets shot, LOL)

I am with you but I do think the rules should be changed to say a person with a carry permit is allowed as long as they are legal by law and it is kept concealed and if they violate the law they are baned from UKC.

Posted by groworg1 on 01-24-2012 05:07 PM:

guy's that carry ccp are gay anyways and have ego problems and are the two hour maniacs that i don't want to hunt with anyways if i knew you were packing i'd scratch myself there is no place for guns at hunts just because you pass a background check doesn't mean your sane imo.

Posted by starplott on 01-24-2012 05:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mike bennett
In Arkansas a sign must be posted prohibiting firearms or by law you can carry if you have a permit. That's the law nothing to do with UKC. Hello lawyers!!

That is conceal carry, Mike (to carry not visible to people, for chc's benefit).

What chc is talking about is open carry (to carry in plain view). Many states have an open carry w/o permit. Which allows some people to carry if the piece is in plain view without a permit. However, such law does NOT allow convicted fellons, those who have domestic violence, and sometimes other convictions to open carry by law (people with open restraining orders or on probation where such is against the order) and it is a felony for those folks to open carry or even have a gun in their possession. Misdemeanor for under age to open carry.

Granted it does not stop those who can't legally open carry from doing so. Once the piece is not in view, it becomes concealed, and a CWP is required. So, for a person to without a permit to open carry (providing they are within the scope of the law to do so) it is legal. BUT, once a jacket covers it, it goes in a jockey box, is covered on seat with shirt/hat/paper/etc it becomes illegal (as it becomes a concealed weapon) if the owner does NOT have a CWP.

Chc's rationale is that they are one in the same/equal and UKC should allow non permitted people to open carry if they are going to allow permit holding conceal to carry. Therefore assuming everybody who carries a firearm openly is legal to do so like every permitted person is legal to carry concealed. Which is impossible for anybody to know if an open carry is being done legally without doing a background check.

Now, IF states permitted open carry (for chc's benefit again, required a background check and gives you a permit stating you are legal to open carry) this would be a moot point. But they don't. Until then the only way one could tell for sure that somebody without a CWP is in fact legal to open carry is to call law enforcement and have them sort it out by running a check on the spot.

Anybody with a CWP has to carry their permit. That permit is legal proof of right to carry. Unless somebody has a CWP in their possession, it is just an assumption made that a person is within legal realm to carry a firearm in the open. An assumption UKC/clubs cannot afford to make.

I still am sticking to what I stated. You have a CWP and carry concealed at a hunt...we are all good no matter how many people know about it. I see a firearm in the open and the exit will be shown and hunt for that person will be over. If a person shows up at a hunt w an open carry there will be a discussion that will end in being asked to leave if a CWP cannot be produced.

In this f'd up state, it is illegal to carry a loaded firearm out hunting. You get caught w a round in the chamber and you don't have game to shoot in your sight...that is NOT a good thing. You cannot even carry a leaded riffle in your truck. Other states I have lived in were not as anal as WA.

Go figure...

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Posted by Fred Harroun on 01-24-2012 05:15 PM:

thats the dumbest post yet groworg1

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Posted by starplott on 01-24-2012 05:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
just because you pass a background check doesn't mean your sane imo.

That is correct. However, if somebody has proof they are legally within their constitutional rights to carry a concealed weapon...you do not have the right to interfere. Infringing on civil liberties and constitutional rights is not a right we have.

This is something that needs to be handled at the club level. If the club doesn't want to allow such at hunts, the club can make it in their bylaws that under no circumstances are firearms allowed on a person at their club events. If that is not a written rule with the club that they have made clear to everybody...that constitutional right is protected.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 01-24-2012 05:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fred Harroun
thats the dumbest post yet groworg1

YEP..........DON'T NEED A POLL FOR THAT ONE...........LOL

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