UKC Forums - Are dogs made or born?

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Posted by Cry Tough Blues on 11-06-2011 12:28 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Ever notice how many hunters cull the duds and then turn around and pat themselves on the back when they get a good one?
I think you can teach a dog to lead and load, i think we can teach them to come when called and not lift their leg on your huntin buddy (although that is pretty funny) BUT beyond that COONDOGS are born to be COONDOGS and as long as they are taken to the woods and exposed to situations where they can do what they were bred to do the genetics are either there or there not.
So the bttom line is they are BORN.

well said

Posted by gfults on 11-06-2011 02:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JSTARR
They have to be trained!!!

You cant train a dog to tree a coon. They either got it in their veins or they dont. Ive got 2 littermates that I started hunting them with each other. They treed on pure instinct having never seen a coon before. Thats how pups should start.JMO

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Posted by amazingcursouth on 11-06-2011 04:37 AM:

genetics to do things are bred into dogs. Coondogs, Pointers, etc are bred for the natural instincts to hunt the game they are bred for. Yes once in a blue moon you will hear of a guy finding a dog at the pound that is jam up. But that is VERY rare. IF you can train any dog to do anything, why breed for the traits you are looking for? Heck just train the traits into them. WON'T WORK. I hunt treeing curs and i hunt them on squirrel and coon. These dogs are bred to go both ways. But you still have some that are more coon minded and vice versa. But regardless we breed for the treeing instinct. You can teach dogs many things. but to trail and tree game has to be genetic bred into them. And even then some don't make it.

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Posted by JiM on 11-06-2011 05:04 AM:

Coondogs are born, winners are trained.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-06-2011 06:42 AM:

Re: Are dogs made or born?

quote:
Originally posted by trackdriver
Can someone guide me in the right direction?

Both.............they have to have the drive, instincts, good nose and fisical ability BUT they have to have lots of hunting with a handler that knows what they are doing too. The higher the drive and inteligence the easier it is for someone to mess up.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-06-2011 06:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by amazingcursouth
genetics to do things are bred into dogs. Coondogs, Pointers, etc are bred for the natural instincts to hunt the game they are bred for. Yes once in a blue moon you will hear of a guy finding a dog at the pound that is jam up. But that is VERY rare. IF you can train any dog to do anything, why breed for the traits you are looking for? Heck just train the traits into them. WON'T WORK. I hunt treeing curs and i hunt them on squirrel and coon. These dogs are bred to go both ways. But you still have some that are more coon minded and vice versa. But regardless we breed for the treeing instinct. You can teach dogs many things. but to trail and tree game has to be genetic bred into them. And even then some don't make it.

I disagree, I will give you that it takes a whole lot more work but you can train any dog with the nose for the work to track and tree. I have tought a lot of differant breeds to track what ever I give them the scent of. If the track goes up a tree then they have to tree becouse they can't follow the track any further so they bawl or chop or bark.
The treeing just takes confidence in the dog knowing he is right and wanting it enough to bark becouse he knows were it is and can't get to it.

Posted by gfults on 11-06-2011 09:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by amazingcursouth
genetics to do things are bred into dogs. Coondogs, Pointers, etc are bred for the natural instincts to hunt the game they are bred for. Yes once in a blue moon you will hear of a guy finding a dog at the pound that is jam up. But that is VERY rare. IF you can train any dog to do anything, why breed for the traits you are looking for? Heck just train the traits into them. WON'T WORK. I hunt treeing curs and i hunt them on squirrel and coon. These dogs are bred to go both ways. But you still have some that are more coon minded and vice versa. But regardless we breed for the treeing instinct. You can teach dogs many things. but to trail and tree game has to be genetic bred into them. And even then some don't make it.

I agree. They gotta have it running thru their veins. Ive seen alot of dogs that would run a track but no matter what you do, they never would tree. They just werent born to be tree minded. Humans cant add natural instinct to a dog as if were mother nature. You can make dogs better in some areas and break them from doing things we dont desire. We actually dont train coonhounds so to speak. We expose them to the right environment and then mother nature takes over and after that we can fine tune and break dogs.

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Posted by Tyler Vaden on 11-06-2011 02:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
I disagree, I will give you that it takes a whole lot more work but you can train any dog with the nose for the work to track and tree. I have tought a lot of differant breeds to track what ever I give them the scent of. If the track goes up a tree then they have to tree becouse they can't follow the track any further so they bawl or chop or bark.
The treeing just takes confidence in the dog knowing he is right and wanting it enough to bark becouse he knows were it is and can't get to it.

No way I got a pet dog that will trail with out barking. I have seen dogs open on trail and when they got to the tree they knew the game was up there and all they would do is look up some would stay for hours. You maybe can train a dog to track and stay at the tree, but if it don't bark what fun is that. Before I had one good dog I had 2 dogs that where 1/2 coondog. One dog ran the track the other barked treed. They where both real good at what they did but both where far form a coondog.

Posted by Bluedogman on 11-06-2011 02:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Vaden
No way I got a pet dog that will trail with out barking. I have seen dogs open on trail and when they got to the tree they knew the game was up there and all they would do is look up some would stay for hours.

This is true!

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Posted by Dale Young on 11-06-2011 04:16 PM:

Feed'em , care for'em and be their chauffeur. Just the basics , then a few talks about what you don't want them to do. If they do it you usually have to decide if they work the way you like it done on a personal level. A persons likes and dislikes and even age or maybe handicaps figures into what they want in a dog and if he stays or not.

Posted by groworg1 on 11-06-2011 04:28 PM:

made but the more tools in the shed sure makes it easier lol.

Posted by GA DAWG on 11-06-2011 05:17 PM:

They might be born But I've yet to see one make it without the ol trainer(handler) doing his or her part. I will say some are natural coon treeing hounds but they can't drive themselfs to the woods or nothing.

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Posted by JSTARR on 11-06-2011 09:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
They might be born But I've yet to see one make it without the ol trainer(handler) doing his or her part. I will say some are natural coon treeing hounds but they can't drive themselfs to the woods or nothing.

They still have to be trained!

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Posted by john Duemmer on 11-06-2011 11:51 PM:

Assume you Start out with a well bred pup with all the genetic advantages that the breed has to offer, maybe and i mean maybe 25% of those pups will if given the chance make a dog that can consistantly tree a coon. Now if your talking exceptional dogs you can probably drop that sucess rate down to 10%.
So unless you get extremly lucky most of them regardless of whos on the end of the leash just arent gonna make it, but when you do happen on one that has it all you will realize in short order how little training is involved, 90% of what you accomplish as far as TRAINING will be in teaching them what not to do.
Absolute reguirements are, hunt drive, the ability to take a track in the right direction and push it hard enough to make a coon climb, and the instinct to tree and stay.Take away any one of these and i want to see the guy that thinks he can train that dog.
THEY ARE BORN.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 11-07-2011 12:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Assume you Start out with a well bred pup with all the genetic advantages that the breed has to offer, maybe and i mean maybe 25% of those pups will if given the chance make a dog that can consistantly tree a coon. Now if your talking exceptional dogs you can probably drop that sucess rate down to 10%.
So unless you get extremly lucky most of them regardless of whos on the end of the leash just arent gonna make it, but when you do happen on one that has it all you will realize in short order how little training is involved, 90% of what you accomplish as far as TRAINING will be in teaching them what not to do.
Absolute reguirements are, hunt drive, the ability to take a track in the right direction and push it hard enough to make a coon climb, and the instinct to tree and stay.Take away any one of these and i want to see the guy that thinks he can train that dog.
THEY ARE BORN.

I got a boston terrier. Mean little critter. He'll kill every rat he comes across. I thought I could train him to tree squirrels. He runs with some squirrel treeing feists. I cant get him to tree a lick. He just aint got it in him.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-07-2011 12:28 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Vaden
No way I got a pet dog that will trail with out barking. I have seen dogs open on trail and when they got to the tree they knew the game was up there and all they would do is look up some would stay for hours. You maybe can train a dog to track and stay at the tree, but if it don't bark what fun is that. Before I had one good dog I had 2 dogs that where 1/2 coondog. One dog ran the track the other barked treed. They where both real good at what they did but both where far form a coondog.

It is a lot easier to train a dog to speak when it makes it's find than to track. I didn't say it is easy. It is easier on some than others but it is easier to teach one to track.
Formal track training takes a lot of time and tracks. Teaching them to do a stand or sit bark till you get there takes a lot less time. If a coon dog has the right traits it will learn from hunting with other hounds.

Posted by john Duemmer on 11-07-2011 12:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
I got a boston terrier. Mean little critter. He'll kill every rat he comes across. I thought I could train him to tree squirrels. He runs with some squirrel treeing feists. I cant get him to tree a lick. He just aint got it in him.

Iv always felt that the predisposition to (bark up) had to be a genetic flaw that just happened to suit our needs as hunters.. Any member of the canid. family that wasnt smart enough to move on when their pray was out of reach would surely starve to death in the wild. We have simply refined the trait through selective breeding, Good luck with that little bulldog if ya get him treeing let me know. LOL.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 11-07-2011 12:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Iv always felt that the predisposition to (bark up) had to be a genetic flaw that just happened to suit our needs as hunters.. Any member of the canid. family that wasnt smart enough to move on when their pray was out of reach would surely starve to death in the wild. We have simply refined the trait through selective breeding, Good luck with that little bulldog if ya get him treeing let me know. LOL.

Im wanting some of them miniature pigs they have out nowdays. Make a hawg dog outta him. He fight a elephant I believe lol.

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Posted by Tyler Vaden on 11-07-2011 02:54 AM:

Okie Dawg lets say you can train anything from any breed to run and tree you are away better trainer then me. If you could pick to buy something not bred to hunt or something that was what would you do? I can't train just anything to track and tree. I save time and money by buying pups bred to tree.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-07-2011 05:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Vaden
Okie Dawg lets say you can train anything from any breed to run and tree you are away better trainer then me. If you could pick to buy something not bred to hunt or something that was what would you do? I can't train just anything to track and tree. I save time and money by buying pups bred to tree.

I didn't say it was the sinceable thing to do. I was just saying it could be tought and if you have to teach it the treeing part is easier than teaching the tracking part. Yes in the ANIMAL hunting world you would have to be stupid to go get a pointy eared dog to start with.
A hound will pick up hound work easier than a cattle dog and a cattle dog will pick up the cattle training faster than the hound.
But they can both be tought to llok up and bark.
A lot of hounds are tought to tree. The owner just doesn't think of it as training it. You do a drag and the pup looks up and can see the hide. That is training. I have seen a lot of pups that had to be taught to tree by the other dogs doing it.

Posted by ky_walker_man_x on 11-07-2011 07:00 AM:

born

quote:
Originally posted by KyKoonHunter32
They must be born with the ability before you can do anything with them. You can't teach a dog how to track a coon, and you can't make a dog tree a coon. If they are born with it, all they need is a ride and some correcting and fine tuning. It's like the old saying goes "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make em drink!"

right you are .
in my imo if a dog is 8 or 9 months old and been out and seen coons 3 or 4 times .and its not at the tree with the older dogs be for you get there showing some kind of intrest . its not born with the drive to be a top hound.
not saying that you cant put a lot of work and time in to it and get it
to tree coons. coon hounds and a coon dog are very difernt things.
like KyKoonHunter32 said what a coon dog needs most from a trainer is a ride. this is just the way have seen it in my 20+ years of hunting .

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Posted by skeets on 11-07-2011 09:40 AM:

coon dogs are bred, ive had dogs running loose around the house that start treeing before i started hunting them. all a trainer can do is put them in the coons and then encourage them when they do good are discourage them when they do something wrong.to much trainer interference confuses a lot of young dogs. bond with the dog and he will more likely want to please you and the dog will know you better. i think bonding with a dog will make them smarter then if you dont fool with except when its time to go cooning.

Posted by Richard Moore on 11-07-2011 09:48 AM:

They are born not made

Hunting dogs are born hunting dogs. I have owned a number of coon dogs that ran and treed the first time they were taking to the woods. They are called naturals. You can not make a dog hunt that does not have it in it to hunt. They are born.

Posted by p31295 on 11-07-2011 01:10 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by john Duemmer
Assume you Start out with a well bred pup with all the genetic advantages that the breed has to offer, maybe and i mean maybe 25% of those pups will if given the chance make a dog that can consistantly tree a coon. Now if your talking exceptional dogs you can probably drop that sucess rate down to 10%.
So unless you get extremly lucky most of them regardless of whos on the end of the leash just arent gonna make it, but when you do happen on one that has it all you will realize in short order how little training is involved, 90% of what you accomplish as far as TRAINING will be in teaching them what not to do.
Absolute reguirements are, hunt drive, the ability to take a track in the right direction and push it hard enough to make a coon climb, and the instinct to tree and stay.Take away any one of these and i want to see the guy that thinks he can train that dog.
THEY ARE BORN. [/QUOTE

Amen again. You want to grill a good steak , start with a good piece of meat, its just better.

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Posted by old ben on 11-07-2011 01:48 PM:

What about those females than never been in the woods but are throwing tree dogs out of there pups ??

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