UKC Forums - How many have ever actualy????

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-- How many have ever actualy???? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=459250)

Posted by Larry Atherton on 11-01-2011 08:48 PM:

Dirtdevil,

But i do choose based on production ... production of a coon over and over.

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Posted by John D on 11-01-2011 09:41 PM:

To say livestock is bred for one purpose is no different than to say coonhounds are bred for one purpose. Those are oversimplified, ignorant statements.

Take beef cattle. There are hundreds of measurable traits they breed for. Then they take those traits and calculate the Expected Progeny Difference (EPD) for each trait. Google it if you don't believe me.

Another misconception is that behavior traits don't matter in livestock. Go ask a farmer what he does with a bull that won't stay home or a milk cow thats determined to kick you in the face when you put the milker on? Now, the guy that breeds rodeo bulls has different traits he's breeding for. He ain't going to the local bull sale or a dairy farmer to get his stock....

Livestock farmers do have an advantage because their traits are more easily measured than coonhound breeders. Behavior, intelligence and "learned" traits are of much greater importance, obviously.

Coonhound breeders don't have much in the way of hard numbers to evaluate dogs. Hunt wins, TRL's, PAD's and maybe HTX and some guy blowing about killing 20 coons last night and thats it. The ways we have to measure a coondog are all flawed, IMO. The one way that isn't so flawed is when you walk in to that dog, treed, and he has a coon. That means alot to me because THAT is what I keep one for.

Oh, I've bred to one stud with the initials of "DD". I never hunted with his mother and have no opinion of her. Not sure where that came from?

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Posted by Dirtdevil on 11-01-2011 09:53 PM:

Mike:::: Well I got Dan as a puppy from Phoebe Hopkins. I hunted with Dan’s mother and didn’t really like her , but I wanted to help this young girl out that had this litter of puppies , so I did buy one…. When I got him, he was the ugliest pup I’ve ever seen, and in fact I was gonna kill him as soon as I had time.

Posted by Dirtdevil on 11-01-2011 10:00 PM:

Or how about the story of how Tiger Lilly and Scagg's Misty came about .... Carl broke his own rule and bred to a local dog he had heard about out of conviencence ...

It's picking and choosing , sure ... and I aint even saying what is right or wrong ... just saying that too many good dogs are around that we have in our pedigrees or kennels because someone did what would be considered " wrong" but some ...

As long as that is still happening .... either we don't know right from wrong , or we might as well just grit out teeth and turn the page when reading about brood bitches or not hunting with studs before breeding to them ...

Posted by rockett42 on 11-02-2011 12:06 AM:

Never said any of either is easier or harder but it goes along the same lines. You linebreed for certain traits. Same in livestock as is chickens or anything else. You linebreed for brains as much as anything else. Never did I say I was smarter than any of todays breeders, just dont agree with a lot of what they are doing, dont make me right and them wrong. Would rather buy a pup from a guy that breeds what he hunts, if I like what he likes...........

Posted by Dirtdevil on 11-02-2011 12:50 AM:

If you can't see it , touch it or taste it ... does it really exist ?

Can you tell the difference in a good inbred dog from a good outcross you don't see the papers ? Can you even tell one breed from the other if you don't see them cut loose and their owners tell you which is which on a hunt ?

If you telll someone you are right ... are you sure they will fail if they do the opposite ?

Posted by high x pections on 11-02-2011 01:20 PM:

Couldnt agree more

I think every stud dog should be hunted up til a certain age to prove itself and if someone wants to come to your house you should know where a safe spot is to turn him loose for them. This is how I look at, I look at what I want in a dogs pedigree and find me a list of dogs like that, call the owners up and asked to go for a hunt and have them describe them to me. Theres good ones out there but theres a lot of bad ones there as well, and about the female thing, whats to say the good pups coming from your stud aint actually coming from him, maybe its the certain good females that get bred to him. I have seen very few dogs that I like that are stud dogs but I really like the High X - Pectations and Extreme Insane X dogs. I don't think there hunting High X - Pectations anymore but he could get it done when I was pushing him. Now Extreme Insane X is here for the time being and I promise you that you will not be dissapointed when I cut him loose, he will bust as deep as needed and it don't get to rough for him to tree a coon. Come to pike county, Ky and see for yourself.

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Posted by John D on 11-02-2011 02:06 PM:

If people aren't hunting with studs before they breed, it really makes me wonder if they are hunting their females? Why should they? If it doesn't matter whether the stud is a coondog then I guess it shouldn't matter if the female is a coondog either.

But when the pups are born, they want their $200 cash and they want them to go to competition hunters. rofl.

Posted by Wes Coffman on 11-02-2011 06:18 PM:

I would rather hunt with a sampling of young dogs out of a stud than the stud himself. You get what he is throwing (and of course what the female is throwing), not him. Lots of big time winners (world hunt winners, truck winners, big $ winners, etc) that never reproduced a dog close to their own ability. Too much emphasis on stud dogs and not enough on the female you are breeding or pups out of the stud IMO.

Posted by Dirtdevil on 11-02-2011 06:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John D
If people aren't hunting with studs before they breed, it really makes me wonder if they are hunting their females? Why should they? If it doesn't matter whether the stud is a coondog then I guess it shouldn't matter if the female is a coondog either.

But when the pups are born, they want their $200 cash and they want them to go to competition hunters. rofl.

So , no stud is a coondog unless you hunt with him ?

If you can't travel to the stud or you use frozen semen ... then the stud isn't a coondog AND your gyp isn't being hunted either ?

Everyone wants $200 for pups and for them to go to competition hunters ?

Sounds like you are just saying things you don't mean in hopes to prove a point with exaggeration instead of actually typing about your experience and what you think makes a difference in breeding successfully.

If you are gonna convince people that don't hunt with studs to change their minds .... that type of talk won't cut it .

I'd rather see guys like John that have bred to 15 studs breakdown the results and look for trends ..... but that would require more honesty and objective critisizm than most coonhunters I know are capable of ....

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