UKC Forums - Osha

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Posted by Rip on 10-23-2011 12:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Paints-n-cows
The way that I look at it, the reason that they have laws about certain things is because of an incident in the past. It is the same reason that hair dryers have warnings on them not to use them in the shower or deodorant has a warning to not use it on your eyes.

Actually, OSHA has been giving the heads-up to contractors that they are going to do a jobsite visit about 24 hours ahead of their arrival for a long time. And your insurance carrier (if you do work properly and safely) will usually pass cost savings on to you for your workman's comp.

The fines that they pass are negotiable. I know that my ex-employer, a water well drilling company, had two employees killed doing my old job after I left. The guys were not trained to handle the situation and they were in a confined space using chemicals with no rescue apparatus in place. The company ended up with 17 violations and a $17,000 fine that was reduced to $1700 because they paid it up front. The woman that owned the company sold it within the week to avoid the possibility that the families of the victims would have any recourse.

In order for OSHA to investigate a problem, the complainant either has to be a current employee or been one within the last 6 months. They cannot just walk on any job site without permission unless there has been a death or significant bodily injury. However, if you deny them entry or threaten them and they witness a violation, they can contact your local law enforcement agency to assist them.

There are a lot of new laws and regulation that are in effect now or will be shortly. If you chose to ignore the law, then prepare to pay the cost. You can get a copy of 29CFR1910 and read it or go online and look for specific items.

If you cut the ground off of a cord, then the cord is to be rendered unusable. Granted the inspector should not have cut the cord, he should have handed you a citation for a nice fat fine attached instead. They cannot physically disable or destroy anything on jobsite, only tag it as unusable.

Pass the cost on to the consumer? For what...safety equipment, good training, good work practices? If you don't spend the time and effort working safe, you are on borrowed time and your business/home/personal life have little value to you anyway. And explain how you place a value on someone that takes a fall and breaks his back, trips on a jobsite and impalls himself on rebar, or looses an eye/hearing/use of a limb because they or you removed a guard on a piece of equipment?

Lawyers and lawsuits run the businesses today. Don't kid yourself and think anything else. If you try to save 10 minutes by doing something without regard for you or your employers safety and lifelong health, then don't be suprised if you are the guy sitting along the road with a sign that say will work for food.

No, just no.

OSHA gets involved in things they have absolutely no business being involved in and they hinder production. Their goal isn't safety. Maybe it was at one point, but now their goal is to hinder the work and collect as much in fines as possible. They make stupid regluations to increase their fineing power.

Why would you want to regulate that people that need things sharp have to use dull tools? Yep they have that regulation. They expect employees to cut with dull tools and it has actually INCREASED the incidence of work related injuries by making them use dull equipment but OSHA doesn't care about the increase in injuries, they just want to dish out the fines if someone tries to use a sharp tool.

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Posted by Tully on 10-23-2011 01:32 AM:

All I can say...

Is I'm glad I haven't had them come hassle me. I own a residential concrete business. I do not promote unsafe work practices, but there are things in the concrete business that can be dangerous, and there's no getting around it! I will stress that I am a SMALL contractor. Generally only 1 employee, and I work with another contractor on pours larger than we can handle by ourselves. My equipment is 100% safe, but I can imagine somehow they could stick me with thousands of dollars worth of fines on my $12,000 loader because I didn't go buy a $50,000 loader! The same with my $2,500 pickup because I don't haul my equipment with a $42,000 pickup. It seems these days the people that think they need the newest and best of everything get hassled less because of the image, rather than a guy that uses what he has, and makes an honest living with used trucks, loaders, backhoes, etc...

Reminds me of the cop that pulled me over for going 87 in a 55 when I was 19. He said my 74 Chevy wasn't in any way safe to go that fast let alone the speeding because it was rusted out. That dang thing was more dependable than most of the trucks that come off the showroom floor these days!

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Posted by Paints-n-cows on 10-23-2011 05:59 AM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rip
No, just no.

OSHA gets involved in things they have absolutely no business being involved in and they hinder production. Their goal isn't safety. Maybe it was at one point, but now their goal is to hinder the work and collect as much in fines as possible. They make stupid regluations to increase their fineing power.

Why would you want to regulate that people that need things sharp have to use dull tools? Yep they have that regulation. They expect employees to cut with dull tools and it has actually INCREASED the incidence of work related injuries by making them use dull equipment but OSHA doesn't care about the increase in injuries, they just want to dish out the fines if someone tries to use a sharp tool. [/QUOTE

If you honestly believe that they are there to hinder work, then you are sadly mistaken. Look back at the history of the workplace...the number of work-related disabling injuries have dropped since safety became paramount on the jobsite. The people that are actually able to retire with all of their appendages is actually a countable number now.

Years of mistakes and injuries are what have created the system as it stands. Contractors that are trying to cut corners to make an extra buck, using items that should be in the garbage, and pushing their employees to work in unsafe conditions...that is what created the rules.

Is it a government regulated entity? Yes, it is. Is it controlled by bureaucratics that wouldn't know which end of a hammer to use? Absolutely. Does it have regulations that are out-dated or seemingly unworkable? We all know that it does. Do I agree with low-pressure air nozzles or fall protection for every instance when you are more than 6 feet off of the ground? No, I don't (considering that it takes 12 feet for your harness and lanyard to protect you from hitting the ground)....but it is the law and rules every jobsite that I am on. If I don't follow the rules to the best of my ability, then I am out of there. No ifs ands or buts.

You don't have to agree with the regulations just the same as you don't have to follow the criminal law...but if you don't, then be prepared to pay the penalty.

And if you think that you don't need a mask when dry cutting concrete or using aerial painting equipment, then make sure that when your lungs are eaten up and you are dragging an oxygen tank around with you that think back to the laziness/cheapness/machismo that stopped you from putting on that layer of protection. Silicosis is the next mesothelioma.

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Posted by Rip on 10-23-2011 03:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Paints-n-cows
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rip
No, just no.

OSHA gets involved in things they have absolutely no business being involved in and they hinder production. Their goal isn't safety. Maybe it was at one point, but now their goal is to hinder the work and collect as much in fines as possible. They make stupid regluations to increase their fineing power.

Why would you want to regulate that people that need things sharp have to use dull tools? Yep they have that regulation. They expect employees to cut with dull tools and it has actually INCREASED the incidence of work related injuries by making them use dull equipment but OSHA doesn't care about the increase in injuries, they just want to dish out the fines if someone tries to use a sharp tool. [/QUOTE

If you honestly believe that they are there to hinder work, then you are sadly mistaken. Look back at the history of the workplace...the number of work-related disabling injuries have dropped since safety became paramount on the jobsite. The people that are actually able to retire with all of their appendages is actually a countable number now.

Years of mistakes and injuries are what have created the system as it stands. Contractors that are trying to cut corners to make an extra buck, using items that should be in the garbage, and pushing their employees to work in unsafe conditions...that is what created the rules.

Is it a government regulated entity? Yes, it is. Is it controlled by bureaucratics that wouldn't know which end of a hammer to use? Absolutely. Does it have regulations that are out-dated or seemingly unworkable? We all know that it does. Do I agree with low-pressure air nozzles or fall protection for every instance when you are more than 6 feet off of the ground? No, I don't (considering that it takes 12 feet for your harness and lanyard to protect you from hitting the ground)....but it is the law and rules every jobsite that I am on. If I don't follow the rules to the best of my ability, then I am out of there. No ifs ands or buts.

You don't have to agree with the regulations just the same as you don't have to follow the criminal law...but if you don't, then be prepared to pay the penalty.

And if you think that you don't need a mask when dry cutting concrete or using aerial painting equipment, then make sure that when your lungs are eaten up and you are dragging an oxygen tank around with you that think back to the laziness/cheapness/machismo that stopped you from putting on that layer of protection. Silicosis is the next mesothelioma.

I didn't say they were always like that. I didn't say that they haven't done some good.

But now they are a money making/policy shaping tool of the gubment and they are using it to pick winners and losers in business as well as bring more into the coffers. It is being used as political gestappo. Want to go after lawyers (they never would but just as an example) then regulate them to death with stupid and counterproductive regulations and you will harm that sector of the economy so they can "socially engineer" with it.

This is their mission now more so than protecting people.

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Posted by Paul Coffey on 10-24-2011 08:15 PM:

OSHA is ridiculous, but MSHA is even worse.

Posted by Jim Hill on 10-24-2011 08:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
No, just no.

OSHA gets involved in things they have absolutely no business being involved in and they hinder production. Their goal isn't safety. Maybe it was at one point, but now their goal is to hinder the work and collect as much in fines as possible. They make stupid regluations to increase their fineing power.

Why would you want to regulate that people that need things sharp have to use dull tools? Yep they have that regulation. They expect employees to cut with dull tools and it has actually INCREASED the incidence of work related injuries by making them use dull equipment but OSHA doesn't care about the increase in injuries, they just want to dish out the fines if someone tries to use a sharp tool.

im with Rip on this one ,and if you dont think they are there all about the MONEY then you are blind they just act like they care about **** ,like cutting the cords with grounds knocked off, sure funny i can bring them home and use them for years with no prob ,but they will fine you for it at the drop of a hat

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Posted by cbrigham on 10-24-2011 08:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Hill
well i cant wait for one to walk onto a job im on and try giving me a ticket for not wearing a mask when i spray ,i can do and wear whatever i want ,its my lungs not theres

One of the dumbest thing I have ever read on here, I just spent a week in mayo recovering from a lung operation. I used to think I was a tough sob but I am going to tell you one thing, if you cant breathe you are plain screwed..........................

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Posted by Jim Hill on 10-24-2011 09:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cbrigham
One of the dumbest thing I have ever read on here, I just spent a week in mayo recovering from a lung operation. I used to think I was a tough sob but I am going to tell you one thing, if you cant breathe you are plain screwed..........................

i wear a mask everyday at work,im just saying its a choice if you want to or not

Posted by l.lyle on 10-25-2011 02:35 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by cbrigham
One of the dumbest thing I have ever read on here, I just spent a week in mayo recovering from a lung operation. I used to think I was a tough sob but I am going to tell you one thing, if you cant breathe you are plain screwed..........................

I'm sorry for your circumstance. Was OSHA around way back when you were working?? If so? Were they doing their job? Now for the question on whom to sue? The company or OSHA?

Posted by truly on 10-25-2011 04:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Paints-n-cows
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rip
No, just no.

OSHA gets involved in things they have absolutely no business being involved in and they hinder production. Their goal isn't safety. Maybe it was at one point, but now their goal is to hinder the work and collect as much in fines as possible. They make stupid regluations to increase their fineing power.

Why would you want to regulate that people that need things sharp have to use dull tools? Yep they have that regulation. They expect employees to cut with dull tools and it has actually INCREASED the incidence of work related injuries by making them use dull equipment but OSHA doesn't care about the increase in injuries, they just want to dish out the fines if someone tries to use a sharp tool. [/QUOTE

And if you think that you don't need a mask when dry cutting concrete or using aerial painting equipment, then make sure that when your lungs are eaten up and you are dragging an oxygen tank around with you that think back to the laziness/cheapness/machismo that stopped you from putting on that layer of protection. Silicosis is the next mesothelioma.

And speaking of passing the cost on to the consumer, what is the chance that we the taxpayer pick up the tab for those who end up with silicosis or mesothelioma? I bet pretty high.
I agree with jim- seems like it should be your choice- but on the other hand i don't really want to pick up the tab for the thousands of laborers who work in unsafe conditions.

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Posted by l.lyle on 10-25-2011 04:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by truly
And speaking of passing the cost on to the consumer, what is the chance that we the taxpayer pick up the tab for those who end up with silicosis or mesothelioma? I bet pretty high.
I agree with jim- seems like it should be your choice- but on the other hand i don't really want to pick up the tab for the thousands of laborers who work in unsafe conditions.

I reckon a good old stiff twenty thousand dollar fine would fixem real good. An Employer that Doubted Highly that OSHA had solved his problem with volatiles and would have used that $20,000 to buy that kind of health liability insurance on the private market. But since OSHA fined and stole that money there was no money for the insurance. So the question remains ? Sue the company? or sue OSHA?? Or is it as you suggest "I ( the taxpayer)" don't realy want to pickup the tab for thousands of laborers who work in unsafe conditions". , what a Government agency was supposed to be acomplishing. The taxpayer might pick up the tiny tab for treatment. But what about for the Pain and Suffering that either OSHA or the company are absolutely liable for????? HUH? Do you want to have it BOTH WAYS ? Mr. Beaureucrat? You can't this time and even less after 2012. We are on to you. You can no longer have it both ways that we are your subjects that beg to the thrown.

Posted by Chris Taylor on 11-03-2011 08:57 PM:

Folks dealing with OSHA is how I make my living.........as a Safety Director for a large company there are several things that lead me to believe that none of you have done your homework!! LOL!! Here are just a few FACTS that can help you in the event of an inspection:

1. OSHA can only regulate a company that employs 10 or more people.
THAT�S 10 OR MORE. Now here is a loop hole in the 29 CFR regulations. IF you own a piece of equipment (such as a Crane) that is covered under the standard and you and your equipment can put the public or someone on a jobsite in danger then you are covered.

2. YOU have the right to refuse the inspection.......BUT when you do this they have to go and obtain a court order from a judge to return for an inspection. A residential construction site probably not worth the effort for the court order if you get my drift. But if they do return you defiantly have a bulls eye painted on your company.

3. As for what all they have regulations for its EVERYTHING. They a have regulation called the "General Duty Clause" this states that "all employers will provide a work place free of recognized hazards". Trust me this rule is WIDE OPEN for anything.

4. When Obama took office it was noted that in a speech to the Department of Labor(which is who OSHA serves under) he stated "OSHA is no longer in the consultation business, they are in the enforcement business." So yes now they must pay there on way so to speak.

5. Somewhere I read on here that they would give you 24hours notice. That�s not true, cause there is a regulation that doesn't allow that and the penalty is jail time.

6. As for tearing tickets up. When they do an inspection they get your mailing address and they send those tickets called citations in the mail and you have 15days to respond. They don�t give any information to you at that time UNLESS it is an intimate danger to life. And you have the opportunity to go and defend your company and its actions.

7. As for the videoing of the jobsites��there is a law that you cannot video or audio tape anyone without consent or prior notification. Also there is a law that if that person has no knowledge that he is or has been videoed that evidence is not admissible to court.

If there is one speck of advise that I can give you for companies that are subject to 29 CFR regulation is that keep your people as safe as possible, and they can�t cite you if you�re not there��.hint, hint!!

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Posted by Jarrad M on 11-03-2011 10:53 PM:

I read this forum all the time but this is the first time I have ever posted. I also make my living dealing with OSHA as a safety manager for a very large company and can promise you everything in the above post is 100% true. I read things on here all the time that im not sure about. But this thread has to do with my everday job, which is protecting my employees from injury and my company from OSHA citations. OSHA inspectors come to my site atleast every couple of years and we have never had a citation. I dont want to start an arguement but I cant just keep my mouth shut on this one.

Posted by Paints-n-cows on 11-03-2011 11:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Taylor
[5. Somewhere I read on here that they would give you 24hours notice. That�s not true, cause there is a regulation that doesn't allow that and the penalty is jail time.

7. As for the videoing of the jobsites��there is a law that you cannot video or audio tape anyone without consent or prior notification. Also there is a law that if that person has no knowledge that he is or has been videoed that evidence is not admissible to court.

If there is one speck of advise that I can give you for companies that are subject to 29 CFR regulation is that keep your people as safe as possible, and they can�t cite you if you�re not there��.hint, hint!! [/B]

I agree with you Chris with the two exceptions above.

I work as a Union member and OSHA will give 24 hours notice that they are coming on a jobsite for an inspection. This may not apply if they have a worker complaint but they will give you notice if they are doing a standard site inspection. I have been involved in many "safety standowns" and "rollbacks" just to ensure that everything is in order. If you can find that regulation, I would appreciate you PMing it to me so that I may have it.

The statement about videotaping or recording is totally inaccurate. There is no Federal law that prohibits this at all. Perhaps your state law dictates something different but here in Illinois, I can videotape or record anything anytime anywhere. You cannot tape record a conversation on a phone unless at least one of the parties is aware of the tape recording but I can record a conversation with you and you will have not have to be notified.

The reason that I am familiar with that law is because I used to serve as a Union Organizer and people would try to tell you that you couldn't take any pictures or videos. You can as long as you a) have permission from the property owner: b) are on public property; OR c) not in a situation involving Federal security (i.e., Homeland Security). These are the same rules that law enforcement follows for getting a "plain view" warrant or access to place a hold on the property pending a court ordered search warrant.

Again, these are the laws as they apply to the State of Illinois. Other localities may have different rules.

And I really don't envy your position as a Safety Director because when heads roll for something on a job, your position's is usually the first.

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Posted by Jarrad M on 11-04-2011 01:36 AM:

Some states such as california have there own osha. Some have federal osha, I live in texas we have federal osha. Texas companies do not get any prior notice of an oasha inspection unless they are a vpp site.

Posted by Paints-n-cows on 11-04-2011 01:38 AM:

What is a VPP site?

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Posted by Rip on 11-04-2011 01:43 AM:

As corrupt as the gubment is and as deep in bed with the unions that the gubment is I can believe they give union places notice before their inspections.

I don't doubt that a bit regardless of what law there is or isn't. One bloated beuracratic agency protecting another.

OSHA has some good things, but their mission has changed. Now it's not about safety. It's about making more regulations to generate more revenue and stomping out certian businesses.

They have gotten just as bad and stupid with their regulations as the others.

It's just part of the gubments "social engineering" now.

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Posted by 1deadeye on 11-04-2011 01:49 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Paints-n-cows
What is a VPP site?

Voluntary Protection Program.

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Posted by jason2579 on 11-04-2011 03:26 AM:

Just curious when did OSHA start . I believe i read 1990 i wonder who was president then that started this or gave the ok for OSHA that so many on here are complaining about. Not trying stir the pot.

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Posted by l.lyle on 11-04-2011 03:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jason2579
Just curious when did OSHA start . I believe i read 1990 i wonder who was president then that started this or gave the ok for OSHA that so many on here are complaining about. Not trying stir the pot.

Like 99% of "programs", they start out reasonable and eventually become a thorn in the back of everyone. It is past time to clean house on many, many agencies and the "programs" they rode in on.

Posted by heckler on 11-04-2011 04:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jason2579
Just curious when did OSHA start . I believe i read 1990 i wonder who was president then that started this or gave the ok for OSHA that so many on here are complaining about. Not trying stir the pot.

Sometime around 1970, Nixon signed it into law.

Posted by l.lyle on 11-04-2011 05:08 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by heckler
Sometime around 1970, Nixon signed it into law.

A lots of invasive laws were passed in the 60's and early 70's, probably on the whole more then than at anytime before or since even. When they clean the books they need to start at the sixties. Well, Maybe FDR' s Socialist stuff I'll agree was almost as devastating to the Constitution and the American Way.

Posted by David Myers on 11-04-2011 08:54 PM:

The big problem with OSHA now is that they are no longer Govt funded they now have to nit pick and take it out on the construction companies to support themselves .

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