UKC Forums - Layup Coon

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Posted by Glenn Wells on 08-04-2011 12:35 AM:

It may appear that a dog using the wind to locate a coon is guessing, but that is the way it starts. If they learn to use the trait, you might notice they also use sight to be deadly accurate. You will notice that they are on side of tree that you find the coon, saves time shining .

Hey Rip - Look for a dog coming out of Nocturnal Skipper if you would like to find another, he came out of them and threw them also !

__________________
D. Glenn Wells, Jr.
UKC MOH

Posted by honalieh on 08-04-2011 12:43 AM:

Lay-Up

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1

Some guys "claim" that there dog can tree a coon without it even being on the ground by the wind scent pattern. I however do not believe that. They say thats laying up a coon.

Count me as one of the guys that "claim" that. But, I've only been hunting for about 35 years, so I've still got a lot to learn.

A few things that I have learned are : (1) a good lay-up dog is rare, (2) there is a world of difference in a lay-up dog and a silent dog (on that particular tracK), (3) lay-ups are not always pretty---often the dog can't settle on a tree because he's getting the scent from the air, NOT from the tree trunk.

Posted by l.lyle on 08-04-2011 02:44 AM:

Not always pretty

Mine would draw 500 minuss on one coon.LOL Because he doesn't walk around on his hind legs that much. He liable to be standing up on anything and moving around. A tree to a sapling snag but be treeing over his shoulder looking in the direction he is smelling. I don't worry about it. I have learned to look where he does. If he winds it he will make an attempt to locate by tree sniffing several trunks where he thinks the coon might be but if unsuccessful, he will go back to winding treeing. It's easy for me to tell if a dog is treeing up a tree he is standing on or not. Seems like it would be easy for anybody. Probably still draw all kinds of minus though. LOL
By the way a winded layup is not when a dog has opened on a track. Some people might think it a silent dog, as it is, on that track. Kill that coon and send him on and he's liable to be wide open on the next coon. A silent dog is silent on almost every tract all of the time. Maybe just a yip or two if he sees it going up.

Posted by II Chance on 08-04-2011 04:28 AM:

The Best Statement

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
The real truth of the matter is I don't care how the dog trees a coon as long as when I unsnap that lead it gets treed quick and it has a coon in the majority of its trees.

The best statement about a coondog in this intire thread. Thats what you have your hound out there for.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 08-04-2011 01:15 PM:

intellectualist, has it figured out! I NEVER said a dog cannot wind coon because when coon are moving my female explodes in the box while driving down the road. I think that its amazing. If you pass a coon on the road or in a ditch and the wind is right my female will let you know real quick. I would say she would make one heck of a rig dog.

The point is I have seen dogs wind off of the air and I can assure you they are guessing. Often times sitting under a tree they believe the coon is up not on the tree. I have hunted with world hunt winners, PKC platinum champions and everything in between and laying up coon off of the air waves is not something they did.

Posted by Rip on 08-04-2011 01:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
intellectualist, has it figured out! I NEVER said a dog cannot wind coon because when coon are moving my female explodes in the box while driving down the road. I think that its amazing. If you pass a coon on the road or in a ditch and the wind is right my female will let you know real quick. I would say she would make one heck of a rig dog.

The point is I have seen dogs wind off of the air and I can assure you they are guessing. Often times sitting under a tree they believe the coon is up not on the tree. I have hunted with world hunt winners, PKC platinum champions and everything in between and laying up coon off of the air waves is not something they did.

Just cause they didn't do it doesn't mean others can't.

I had one that did it regularly and was deadly accurate.

I have seen her tree coons from on top of a bluff looking straight at the coon just on air currents and she had NEVE been to the bottom of the bluff to the tree the coon wet up. She came across it on wind currents from the top and treed it that way.

Like I said before though, a dog that can do this consistantly is rare. I've only had one in my life. I have looked for another one since then and have never been able to find it. Not even her offspring could do it consistantly like she did. I still have one of her pups, she's 12 now and can't tree layups like that. If there is old scent on the tree like you are talking about she can do that, but a pure lay up she can't do. Seen her try and fail, but her momma did it regularly.

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Posted by Glenn Wells on 08-04-2011 01:56 PM:

On the hunts you might not have seen it, but it could have been there. There are a few that wind real good but they also learn to use their eyes to become deadly accurate, those are the special ones ! One that does that can fool about anybody at any given time. A true layup dog may be wide open on track, but when conditions are right he will bust in and lockdown on the tree, never putting his head down or slowing!

__________________
D. Glenn Wells, Jr.
UKC MOH

Posted by Bluedogman on 08-04-2011 02:02 PM:

Ay yes... the layup controversy again! Yes, some dogs do tree them from the air currents alone. And yes it is in the blood! Not Taught or learned. Oh, I don't know how to determine how long it's been since one was on the ground. That was the question wasn't it?

__________________
Johnny Williams

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 08-04-2011 02:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
I have seen her tree coons from on top of a bluff looking straight at the coon just on air currents and she had NEVE been to the bottom of the bluff to the tree the coon wet up. She came across it on wind currents from the top and treed it that way.

So RIP what would happen in a hunt if a dog did this?

Posted by Glenn Wells on 08-04-2011 02:35 PM:

You would + her on track and tree ! Bad thing is a dog hunting the wind will go high and come down, makeing you climb every step of the way ! Cold days they hunt bottoms when currents travel down, just stay away from hills if you don't like climbing.

__________________
D. Glenn Wells, Jr.
UKC MOH

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 08-04-2011 02:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Wells
You would + her on track and tree ! Bad thing is a dog hunting the wind will go high and come down, makeing you climb every step of the way ! Cold days they hunt bottoms when currents travel down, just stay away from hills if you don't like climbing.

So Glenn if a coon is in a tree just a few over from the one my dog was on I can tell the judge that my vote is to plus it because my dog was looking dead at that coon and was just treeing it off the wind?

Come on now Glenn! Guys have a hard enough time getting trees plussed unless their dog is bearhugged on the tree when the cast gets in there.

Posted by Two Toes on 08-04-2011 03:49 PM:

True lay~up dogs are pretty much the 99% accurate models. All I've had or been around have been on the wood. Actually never had one myself that sat off the tree except maybe in extremely rare cases. A tree grabbin, slick treein model, is just that,a slick treein idiot with a genetic issue. Experience helps one understand these things as well as not usin a blind eye.

Some of the squirrel dog types may use their eye's but I've not seen that except on full moon kinda nights & only one like that.That dog would get a squirrel nest here & there. Not sayin it don't happen, I just have not experienced it much.

Hoosier,great thing about this hobby is there is always room for improvement "&" most deffinatly new things to learn every day. I know I do. You may have it all figured out but I have been a student & always will be ~ "With both eye's open lookin down the road"!

The deer analogy above is the same gig as with "SOME" hounds. Lord knows I've spent enough & tried plenty to beat a Whitetails nose. Winding & thermal workin is the same in Elk,Mule deer,Pronghorns,Wolves,Coyotes,Dingo's,Tigers & Bears {OH MY},Fox,mountain kitty's........ You get the picture, "I THINK"?

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"Quality not Quantity & hunt what you breed"~"IF you don't, please don't breed what you "DON'T" hunt" ~"If their not good enough for you they sure as tootin ain't good 'nuff for us" ~

Posted by l.lyle on 08-04-2011 04:58 PM:

Is a lay up expert born or can it be made? I'll tell you what accidentally happened with mine. I was letting a 3 to 4 month old pup chase a coontail I had tied to a canepole. I'd snap him up and lay a short drag , rub the tail good on the side of a tree and hang it up. Of course the rest of the dogs were having a fit in the pens. I put him up and decided to get that coon smell away from the kennel. A little way behind my backdoor is some 8 foot tall blueberry bushes so I layed the pole on the top and went on in. About midnight a dog woke me up. That pup had got out of his pen and was treeing that coontail as pretty as you want. I did not drag the tail to the bush, the only way he found it was by winding it. I know that 8 feet high is not much but it might have put the notion in his head. OR maybe he was just born to do it?

Posted by Two Toes on 08-04-2011 05:38 PM:

l.lyle, Some claim it can be trained in them but I'm of the way of thinkin they come outa the mold with that ability otherwise they'd be thick as flea's.

Posted by GA DAWG on 08-04-2011 05:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
Is a lay up expert born or can it be made? I'll tell you what accidentally happened with mine. I was letting a 3 to 4 month old pup chase a coontail I had tied to a canepole. I'd snap him up and lay a short drag , rub the tail good on the side of a tree and hang it up. Of course the rest of the dogs were having a fit in the pens. I put him up and decided to get that coon smell away from the kennel. A little way behind my backdoor is some 8 foot tall blueberry bushes so I layed the pole on the top and went on in. About midnight a dog woke me up. That pup had got out of his pen and was treeing that coontail as pretty as you want. I did not drag the tail to the bush, the only way he found it was by winding it. I know that 8 feet high is not much but it might have put the notion in his head. OR maybe he was just born to do it?

Its born there I recken. Ask Trevor he seems to know it all.. Even though he is how old?

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Michael Ghorley

Posted by Bluedogman on 08-04-2011 05:43 PM:

My guess just by observation 12 or 13!

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Johnny Williams

Posted by Rip on 08-04-2011 07:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
So Glenn if a coon is in a tree just a few over from the one my dog was on I can tell the judge that my vote is to plus it because my dog was looking dead at that coon and was just treeing it off the wind?

Come on now Glenn! Guys have a hard enough time getting trees plussed unless their dog is bearhugged on the tree when the cast gets in there.

I never had any problems gettin her plussed in the hunts cause there was no doubt which tree she was treed on. One that lays them up will show you exactly what tree they are on. Even in that situation you would have had to plus her cause she showed us the coon. She was trein her head off at the top of he bluff with the coon straight in front of her, slightly higher. No doubt what tree she was treein on, she just wasn't at the base of the tree.

Now if the dog was propped up on a different tree cause that's where they could smell it best but lookin at the coon a tree over then they would draw minus but everybody there would likely know they were treein the coon, but if they were propped up on a different tree then most casts would minus. It wouldn't happen much.

Like I said though, I don't have to worry about it cause in all my years I have never found another one that could do that.

They say they train Cadaver dogs to do that, but I doubt you could train a dog to do that on coon. I would think it was born not traied.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 08-04-2011 07:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bluedogman
My guess just by observation 12 or 13!

LOL if i'm 12 or 13 I have forgotten more then most hunters will learn in their lifetime.

Say what you want. I have NEVER seen a dog lay up a coon by air scent alone, therefore I don't believe it can be done. Once I have seen a single dog do it I will eat my words.

Posted by Rip on 08-04-2011 07:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
LOL if i'm 12 or 13 I have forgotten more then most hunters will learn in their lifetime.

Say what you want. I have NEVER seen a dog lay up a coon by air scent alone, therefore I don't believe it can be done. Once I have seen a single dog do it I will eat my words.

So then everything that you haven't personally seen doesn't exist.

Got it.

I guess that limits your scope somewhat there LOL.

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Posted by Mike S Hoag on 08-04-2011 07:49 PM:

lay up dogs

I`ve had two dogs that can flatout wind a coon off of thermals both are out of Skuna River Fred so I also beleive it is a genetic trait!!!they both would stick there heads in the air head strait to a tree and fall treed the one I lost at a young age could smell one a cross a field several hundred yards away and jus fall treed no mouth on the ground!!!

Posted by Bluedogman on 08-04-2011 08:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
I have forgotten more then most hunters will learn in their lifetime.

This pretty much tells a story in itself!

__________________
Johnny Williams

Posted by intellectualist on 08-04-2011 10:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
LOL if i'm 12 or 13 I have forgotten more then most hunters will learn in their lifetime.

Say what you want. I have NEVER seen a dog lay up a coon by air scent alone, therefore I don't believe it can be done. Once I have seen a single dog do it I will eat my words.

Here is where we have to part ways. I have seen it done.
The part we agree on to a point is sometimes the dog has to guess which tree the coon is in. If you hunt in heavy canopy areas like I do, a dog merely winding to tree the coon can sometimes smell the coon better (if the coon is way out on a limb) in the vacinity of another tree than the actual tree the coon is in.
That is assuming there is no scent at all on the bark where the coon climbed.
I think alot of these guys do not realize that although the dog treed a "lay up", there may still be some residual scent on the bark of the tree that the dog has actually smelled causing the dog to gravitate to that tree.
Any one of you guys that have included "sight" in your debate are not even on the same page as this discussion.
What Hoosier was trying to say in the beginning (although further comments have been made by him that I disagree with) that I agreed with, is that if there is literally no scent on the ground or the tree, and you are in heavy canopy, and the dog "picks" a tree to tree on, that almost assuredly has to be a guess. If the coon is up high in a big oak as described and way out on a limb, with other smaller trees all around, if there is no scent at all on the bark of the oak, how will the dog know the coon is in that particular tree and not one of the smaller ones around it?
That is my idea of what a guess would be.

Posted by intellectualist on 08-04-2011 11:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GOING DEEP
I myself think there are two deffinitions to a layup coon there are the old tracks that lead a dog to a tree where u find a coon balled up sleepin in a big fork generally not very high up. Then u have them coon been up there so long there is no track to run and the dog has head in the air dancen on their toes locating and treein off the thermals in the air as Russ descibes. once a guy has had a few of these types of dogs he won't be happy with one that cant tree them ol'layup coons

I would agree with this.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 08-04-2011 11:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bluedogman
This pretty much tells a story in itself!

Haven't we been over this tune before?

I know everything, you know everything and everyone that has replied to this thread knows it all. Heck id go as far to say that everyone on here knows it all. We all can disagree but I would rather disagree with an ol coonhunter then a tree hugger any day. Even if he does hunt blue dogs or black dogs

Posted by GA DAWG on 08-04-2011 11:38 PM:

Well I don't know about the last part of that statement. LOL....

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