UKC Forums - Another rule question?

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 11-16-2010 03:52 AM:

Again to answer the question. The judge must make an educated judgment if the dog is babbling or on track. The judge has the right to minus strike points if there is no track. The judge can't put a time frame on the dog unless he uses the eight minute rule and if he feels the dog is babbling he should minus it right then. It is not a scratchable offense, but it could minus you out pretty fast.

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Posted by bush whacker on 11-16-2010 06:45 AM:

in u.k.c. hunts you get 1 min. each and every time a dog or dogs are turned loose. If dog or dogs are split treed and are turned back in to other dogs the 1 minute rule still applies.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-16-2010 02:30 PM:

You get one minute for your dog to babble but you don't have to take it. You can strike in at any time.

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Posted by oklared on 11-16-2010 02:47 PM:

(h) Dog(s) declared struck and determined to be babbling will be minused their strike points. Babbling is defined as when a dog opens three times or has been struck where no track is evident.

If you strike anytime during the first minute the judge can not minus you as long as it is evedent the track goes on. The key is a TRACK BEING EVEDENT, and anyone that has coonhunted at least a day or two can tell if there is a track evedent or not so realy the subject isnt even worth talking about. Just strike your dog when IT strikes and tree it when IT trees and youll be fine.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-16-2010 03:20 PM:

I guess I am slow. How do you tell a track is evident from 3 barks of a dog that has just been cast into the dark? Now if it is out on pavement or some place I could see it. Most casts I have been on cast the dogs were there are tracks likely.

Posted by jackbob42 on 11-16-2010 03:47 PM:

If a dog strikes within the first minute , the judge can minus the dog for babbling , if he believes that the dog is babbling. And then , I believe , it is subject to a question and a vote.

HOWEVER , he must make his decision when the dog is struck. He cannot wait 3 minutes , and then decide to minus it.

IF he doesn't minus the dog right off , then the dog has 8 minutes to open again.

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Posted by JiM on 11-16-2010 03:51 PM:

That is why not everyone is qualified to judge a cast. A judge must be able to recognize a dog that is false barking from a dog that is trailing, even if he has never heard that dog before. Most experienced houndsmen can listen to a dog opening and know if that dog is trailing or babbling. If they don't have that ability, they shouldn't be carrying the card.

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Posted by JiM on 11-16-2010 03:53 PM:

HOWEVER , he must make his decision when the dog is struck. He cannot wait 3 minutes , and then decide to minus it.

Why can't he? Where does it say that? I believe a judge can minus a dog for babbling ANYTIME after it is struck.

Posted by joey bourne on 11-16-2010 04:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
(h) Dog(s) declared struck and determined to be babbling will be minused their strike points. Babbling is defined as when a dog opens three times or has been struck where no track is evident.

If you strike anytime during the first minute the judge can not minus you as long as it is evedent the track goes on. The key is a TRACK BEING EVEDENT, and anyone that has coonhunted at least a day or two can tell if there is a track evedent or not so realy the subject isnt even worth talking about. Just strike your dog when IT strikes and tree it when IT trees and youll be fine.

Thats whats up right there!!!!!!!! If it holds a track and progresses it that is tracking. If my dog barks he gets put on the paper 10 seconds in or 10 minuits. I see dogs that work different all dogs doesn't have the same nose ability.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-16-2010 04:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey bourne
Thats whats up right there!!!!!!!! If it holds a track and progresses it that is tracking. If my dog barks he gets put on the paper 10 seconds in or 10 minuits. I see dogs that work different all dogs doesn't have the same nose ability.

That is the way with me. I call my dog the way I hear it. I lost the last hunt I was in becouse I treed it on a locate at the end of a hunt when I wouldn't of had to tree it. I just think it is a crock that when you strike it in during the first minute a judge can call it babbleing and not have to back it up.
If babbleing is opening 3 times when no track is evident. You could get any dog for babbleing at any time.

Evident- easy to see or understand..................if you could see the track you wouldn't need the dog.
That need to be reworded.

Posted by jabrown on 11-16-2010 04:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
If a dog strikes within the first minute , the judge can minus the dog for babbling , if he believes that the dog is babbling. And then , I believe , it is subject to a question and a vote.

I'm assuming that you mean "If a dog is struck within the first minute" because if a dog is not struck within the first minute, that dog can't recieve any minus for babbling. The first minute is nothing more that a grace period for babbling dogs.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 11-16-2010 05:25 PM:

This was covered in the advisor a few months back. The judge must make an educated judgment.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-16-2010 05:43 PM:

Well most babblers will babble every time you cut them. So I would say if the dog doesn't babble the rest of the night when you cut it you have a pretty good idea it isn't babbleing.

Posted by John D on 11-16-2010 05:54 PM:

The dog better be babbling WHEN he minuses it or the judge will lose on the question. A call has to be made when the dog is babbling. Not 3 minutes or 30 minutes later.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-16-2010 06:15 PM:

What if a judge calls it babbleing and it becomes apparent the dog was running a track? Then what happens?

Posted by john Duemmer on 11-16-2010 06:34 PM:

Like Jim said, this decision doesnt have to be made instantly. Whats wrong with saying to the handler that gets struck quick that your dog will need to carry that track away or you will be minused for striking him on a babble. Sems like the fair way to handle it.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-16-2010 06:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Like Jim said, this decision doesnt have to be made instantly. Whats wrong with saying to the handler that gets struck quick that your dog will need to carry that track away or you will be minused for striking him on a babble. Sems like the fair way to handle it.

Yep that sounds as fare as a person could ask for to me.

Posted by jackbob42 on 11-16-2010 08:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
HOWEVER , he must make his decision when the dog is struck. He cannot wait 3 minutes , and then decide to minus it.

Why can't he? Where does it say that? I believe a judge can minus a dog for babbling ANYTIME after it is struck.

From UKC.........
http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/...Advisor03312007

" If it is determined that the dog is still babbling or opening where no track is evident then it should be minused immediately. Same way for a dog that may open once or twice within the first minute of being released and is declared struck by the handler but the Judge determines either by actions of the dog or otherwise that the dog is opening where no track is evident, then it also should be minused immediately regardless of any time frame. "

" Immediatley " does not mean to wait 3 , 5 , or 7 minutes , AFTER the dog is struck in , and then go back and minus it.

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Posted by l.lyle on 11-16-2010 08:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg

If babbleing is opening 3 times when no track is evident. You could get any dog for babbleing at any time.

Evident- easy to see or understand..................if you could see the track you wouldn't need the dog.
That need to be reworded.

Now that is funny and true right there!

I don't comp hunt very often but I understood the one minute was a grace period even if a dog barked more than three times such as casting down a dirt road and a dog opens off the leash chasing the other dogs down the road lickety split while they are still in sight and it's evedent no dogs are hunting yet (some of ya'll might call running down a road hunting) just acting like racehorses. All you see is rear ends getting gone in a hurry. If somebody wants to strike on that he/she better pray something gets struck in 8. But I was probably wrong about the rule anyway.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-16-2010 08:29 PM:

Another rule question?
Dogs are cut loose.
30 seconds after turning loose the handler strikes his dog after it opens.
Judge looks at handler and says "If that dog doesn't open within one minute I will scratch it for babbling."

Does this dog have 1 minute to open or 8 minutes?

His post doesn't say anything about running down the road. I have never cast dogs down a road but it would be evident that it wasn't on a track. If that was the case.
Were we hunt we dump on creeks and it is very posible and even probable that a hound will strike in the first minute some times.

Posted by john Duemmer on 11-16-2010 09:51 PM:

Soon as a judge says hes gonna scratch for babbling after minute just ask politely for the back of the card and let him point out the rule that gives him that right. There isnt one.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-16-2010 11:10 PM:

Thanks John, I will do just that. If I am ever done like that.

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 11-16-2010 11:15 PM:

sure there is last time i checked a dog was off game.

Posted by Huntinwalkers on 11-16-2010 11:50 PM:

define babbling

My dog will open on the chain if he winds a coon, and will open in the wind a time or two while running the wind to the track, but he doesnt just bark when cut as a matter of fact Ive never seen him do it that he didnt tree before the 8 could have gotten him. Ive hunted with dogs that babble sometime they get lucky sometimes the 8 gets em. On to the next drop and try again.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-16-2010 11:53 PM:

Re: define babbling

quote:
Originally posted by Huntinwalkers
My dog will open on the chain if he winds a coon, and will open in the wind a time or two while running the wind to the track, but he doesnt just bark when cut as a matter of fact Ive never seen him do it that he didnt tree before the 8 could have gotten him. Ive hunted with dogs that babble sometime they get lucky sometimes the 8 gets em. On to the next drop and try again.

Yep that is the way mine is. I have been in a cast once were we just had to split the strike points becouse they were all winding a coon and all bawling.

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