UKC Forums - Rule Question?

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-- Rule Question? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=380051)

Posted by Cornbelt on 10-07-2010 02:27 PM:

Re: kyle

quote:
Originally posted by Fred Harroun
like allen said hunt time isnt over till last tree is scored.josh said dogs were called treed then hunt time ran out but the tree still has to be scored.

Well if Allen is saying that hunt time isn't over than can we still strike and tree dogs and put them on the score card to be plussed or minused? I've always known you could score a dogs tree that was treed before hunt time expired. However I thought after 120 minutes the hunt time was over.

This is what the rule says about tracking devices
"For use of any device used to control or locate dog prior to cast completing hunt time."

I read that as I can use a tracking device upon completion of hunting time...... that is what it says. I guess I'm just being a stubborn ass but the interpretation Allen gives seems to me to go against what is written in the rules.

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Posted by JiM on 10-07-2010 04:05 PM:

Well Cornbelt, I can see your point and the way you are reading it makes sense. But I guess this is like other UKC rules such as 6(k) which states NiteCh's will be scratched for offgame during the authority of the judge but then UKC comes back and says "but not if they tree offgame AFTER he judge arrives. You can debate this rule till the cows come home but when it is all said and done, we DO know how UKC wants it judged. Same with this one. What you are reading in the rules seems clear but what Allen states for how they want it judged is the final word.

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Posted by John D on 10-07-2010 05:49 PM:

Its a good question and technically the rules state that you can use your Garmin on a time out. If you got dog(s) treed that still needed to be scored, I can see Allen's point about not using a Garmin. Allowing Garmin usage in that situation would create more problems.

If you allowed a Garmin to be used I guarantee someone will want to use the Garmin to prove someone's dog was off a tree, or moved or something. Its pretty clear that this technology isn't going to be used that way...yet. With the old beep-beeps, you couldn't get that kind of info.

Its another case of the rules and interpretations barely keeping up with the technology. Given some time, Garmins will be used to score dogs and you can take that to the bank. There's just too much good information there about how dogs are performing to let it go to waste.

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Posted by Cornbelt on 10-07-2010 05:56 PM:

Jim I agree and I will judge it as UKC wants. However what about use during timeouts? The rule states you can use them during timeout also.
Lets say a dog is treed across the river and the other dogs are heard heading onto land you don't have permission to hunt on. Guide says we need to call timeout to get those dogs. We still have to score dogs tree who was treed BEFORE timeout was called but is still considered treed during timeout. Now that timeout has been called how do we proceed? Can trackers be turned on before we score the tree? What if the dogs are getting close to a road and might be in danger? Score the tree first then turn on the trackers to see if they are close to the road?

My whole point is allowing the use of tracking devices after hunt time has expired and during timeouts has no bearing on a dogs ability to tree a coon. So I would like to know, what is the reasoning behind UKC not wanting them turned on? I would just like someone to present to me a logical reason for not allowing them on after hunt time. Oh yeah and how do you handle this situation during timeouts with a tree still needing to be scored?

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Posted by John D on 10-07-2010 07:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cornbelt
I would just like someone to present to me a logical reason for not allowing them on after hunt time.

Because someone will try to use a Garmin to get a dog minused for leaving a tree, or prove their dog didn't move, etc.

Posted by Cornbelt on 10-07-2010 07:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John D
Because someone will try to use a Garmin to get a dog minused for leaving a tree, or prove their dog didn't move, etc.

Thank you John. That is a logical reason.

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Posted by WEBBER on 10-07-2010 07:39 PM:

You want some reasons, I'll bite...

Dog A is treed, timeout is called for whatever reason -- you whip your Garmin out and say, look see dog A left the tree and come back to it, he's minused -----then the fight starts.

Dog A is treed, timeout is called----everyone whips out their Garmin, a dog fight breaks out at the tree of dog A -- Handler of Dog C says "Cornbelt" the Garmin shows only your dog and dog A at that tree, your dog is scratched ---- then the fight starts.

Dog A is treed, you strike your dog 1 minute before timeout, deep in the country ---timeout is called --- (regardless of whether it's within the 2 hours are at the end of the hunt) everyone whips out the Garmin and see that your dog is only 50 yards away. Handler A wants your dog minused for striking the wrong dog -- then the fight starts

Dog A trees before timeout. A was in the lead, B was second, C was way behind but had a few plus points -- timeout is called --- handler B whips out his Garmin to find his dog headed for the highway -- Handler B jumps in the truck to head him off. gets back to find out dog A had a possum on a NC cast. Dog A is scratched, so is B -- then the fight starts.

The list goes on and on!

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Posted by Rough Northern on 10-07-2010 09:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cornbelt
Ok dog is treed across the river and the other dogs are heard heading onto land you don't have permission to hunt on. Guide says we need to call timeout to get those dogs. We still have to score dogs tree who was treed BEFORE timeout was called but is still considered treed during timeout. Now that timeout has been how do we proceed? Can trackers be turned on before we score the tree? If so why would this be any different when scoring a tree after hunt time expired?

I dont really understand the confusion here. If your dog is not the one declared treed before the time out is called go ahead and use your tracker.

If a dog is DECLARED treed before timeout or the hunt expires you cant use a tracker until the tree is scored. Anything else you can use them.

Posted by Cornbelt on 10-07-2010 09:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by WEBBER
You want some reasons, I'll bite...

Dog A is treed, timeout is called for whatever reason -- you whip your Garmin out and say, look see dog A left the tree and come back to it, he's minused -----then the fight starts.

Not sure how someone would have all these dogs programmed into their Garmin but ok let's say that happens. Would it be any different than with the Garmin off. Someone says I think that dog is moving..... same accusation. Still takes good judgment to know.

quote:
Dog A is treed, timeout is called----everyone whips out their Garmin, a dog fight breaks out at the tree of dog A -- Handler of Dog C says "Cornbelt" the Garmin shows only your dog and dog A at that tree, your dog is scratched ---- then the fight starts.

Again same thing can be done without the Garmin. Figh breaks out Dog C handler says Webber I heard your dog in there right before the fight broke out.... same accusation with no Garmin.

quote:
Dog A is treed, you strike your dog 1 minute before timeout, deep in the country ---timeout is called --- (regardless of whether it's within the 2 hours are at the end of the hunt) everyone whips out the Garmin and see that your dog is only 50 yards away. Handler A wants your dog minused for striking the wrong dog -- then the fight starts

Yet again same thing can be done without the Garmin. Dog is struck deep just before timeout is called. Cast walks 50 yards and dog struck deep walks into cast.... same problem no Garmin.

quote:
Dog A trees before timeout. A was in the lead, B was second, C was way behind but had a few plus points -- timeout is called --- handler B whips out his Garmin to find his dog headed for the highway -- Handler B jumps in the truck to head him off. gets back to find out dog A had a possum on a NC cast. Dog A is scratched, so is B -- then the fight starts.

This one here goes to the heart of what I'm talking about. What is more important the safety of the dogs or winning the hunt? Let's say Handler B couldn't whip out his garmin. He goes to A's tree and find out he won the cast. Whoo Hoo! Great, good for him! Now he turns on his Garmin and finds his cast winner dead in the middle of the road. Now to me being able to have the chance to possibly save my hound out weighs all the ways a cheater can try to cheat. And if I can turn my Garmin on and see my dog is on a road or heading to a road..... go ahead and scratch me or whatever but I believe taking my dog home alive is worth more than any cast win.

I guess at a hunt I think the order of importance is hunters safety, dog safety, fairly enforcing the rules, and having fun. I don't like the idea of sacrificing hunter/dog safety to prevent possible ways to cheat. If I'm the only one who feels this way then I guess the cheaters have already won.

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Posted by josh on 10-07-2010 10:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rough Northern
I dont really understand the confusion here. If your dog is not the one declared treed before the time out is called go ahead and use your tracker.

I dont think so, My understanding is that no one can use a tracker untill that last tree is scored.

Posted by Fred Harroun on 10-07-2010 10:51 PM:

and i can remember when we had 3 hr hunts and used carbide lights or if ya could afford it you had a wheat light and tracking systems werent even thought of lol.i understand what your sayin kyle.weve come along way

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Posted by WEBBER on 10-08-2010 01:48 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cornbelt
Not sure how someone would have all these dogs programmed into their Garmin but ok let's say that happens. Would it be any different than with the Garmin off? Someone says I think that dog is moving..... same accusation. Still takes good judgment to know.

It happens, I do it when I'm guiding. For Safety. Imagine that.
I think and know the dog is moving are 2 different things. You can't judge on something you think happened.

quote:

Again same thing can be done without the Garmin. Figh breaks out Dog C handler says Webber I heard your dog in there right before the fight broke out.... same accusation with no Garmin.

Sorry. Just cause you heard my dog in there on the same tree, and I agree he's there doesn't allow you to scratch my dog and dog A when you're not sure where dog C & D is. Garmin eliminates the question of where C & D is. If you are tracking them on Garmin.

quote:

Yet again same thing can be done without the Garmin. Dog is struck deep just before timeout is called. Cast walks 50 yards and dog struck deep walks into cast.... same problem no Garmin.

OK, I want argue this one, you win. It doesn't matter, when time out is called, strike points are deleted except for the dog treed before timeout called.

quote:

This one here goes to the heart of what I'm talking about. What is more important the safety of the dogs or winning the hunt? Let's say Handler B couldn't whip out his Garmin. He goes to A's tree and find out he won the cast. Whoo Hoo! Great, good for him! Now he turns on his Garmin and finds his cast winner dead in the middle of the road. Now to me being able to have the chance to possibly save my hound out weighs all the ways a cheater can try to cheat. And if I can turn my Garmin on and see my dog is on a road or heading to a road..... go ahead and scratch me or whatever but I believe taking my dog home alive is worth more than any cast win.

quote:

I guess at a hunt I think the order of importance is hunters safety, dog safety, fairly enforcing the rules, and having fun. I don't like the idea of sacrificing hunter/dog safety to prevent possible ways to cheat. If I'm the only one who feels this way then I guess the cheaters have already won.

I agree with you on this one. I've loss more hunting dogs on the highway than I can remember, but none since I was able to own a tracker. Now I own a Garmin. It's Awesome.
Some handlers don't think like you, they're competing to win.
You can't satisy everyone.
I gave you some reasons of why UKC might not want Gamins.

IMO they should allow Garmins and E-collars during anytime of the hunt.

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