UKC Forums - Night Hunt Question:

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Posted by Fred Harroun on 08-06-2010 04:30 PM:

go back and read what todd kellem posted he has a good point.

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Posted by wrangler on 08-06-2010 04:32 PM:

I guess what i'm getting at is maybe this rule needs to be changed. When the hunt is over it's over! Plain and simple! [/B][/QUOTE]

If all dogs treed before the hunt time was up then the hunt would be over when all dogs was caught right. You payed your money to be a part of the cast right? Now be a sport and help the man get his dog back.

Posted by blueticker on 08-06-2010 04:39 PM:

It sure makes the decision much easier to stay at home and take a good pleasure hunt after dealing with some situations.

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Posted by CWS on 08-06-2010 04:40 PM:

So lets just say the same situation I described happened to you one night. You won the cast but dagon it if the deadline was 3 a.m. and it is now 2:10 a.m.

You just shinned youre last tree as the time in the hunt expired but ol slick willi treed his dog before the hunt time was over about a half a mile away and he says youre coming to score my dogs tree and if you don't youre scratched! Even though you will win weather his dog has a coon or a slick tree.

So you walk with him to find his dog treed and he takes 9 minutes to shine the tree and is now satisfied. Well it's back to the truck we go a half a mile plus away and by the time you make it back it's 2:50 a.m. you just missed deadline due to scorring a pointless tree.

See a problem yet????????

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Posted by John D on 08-06-2010 04:47 PM:

If its important to Handler B that you score his tree, then score it. Because you don't want to walk, o rbecause the deadline is coming up are not good reasons to not score the tree.

Todd brings up a good point he might want it scored.

Another reason he might want it scored in the state of MO is that non-cast winners with plus points can still receive MO Fed. points.

If the guy has been a prick all night and is just being a prick now, I might have another solution but I ain't gonna post it...

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Posted by CWS on 08-06-2010 05:00 PM:

I will say that if the guy was afraid of the dark or a youth or a nice guy I would have had no problem going in with him. John youre last statement pretty much sumarized that judge.

I think he threatened to scratch everyone in the cast at least 2 times.

Joe, how many times did you hear the words if you do this or that youre scratched?

He struck my dog on the last cut and it was so obvious it was ridiculous and when I asked him where was he striking his dog he threatened to scratch me LOL

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Posted by ov_blues on 08-06-2010 05:35 PM:

If I were Dog B's handler, I would not have made anyone go score my tree. However, for someone that wants to play completely by the rules, there are things that are still under the authority of the judge, that could still get Dog A scratched. So there was still a possibility that Dog B could win provided he got plussed on his last tree.

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Posted by troy on 08-06-2010 06:18 PM:

As I'm sitting here getting ready for tomrrow ( I'm the master of hounds ) for a YEP event I have been reading the rules alot this week. With that thought is why i 1st posted to this tread with the RULE answer to your question. Todd broght up a point on score card being signed. Here is 1 more RULE reason you needed to go to the tree. Rule #13 states that a MOH/HD can make math error corrections to the score card. A good MOH/HD should recheck the math on all score cards and with the scores all that close should use a calculator. One other good point was made by blueticker in the order that the trees was scored

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Posted by jculler8 on 08-06-2010 07:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by troy
As I'm sitting here getting ready for tomrrow ( I'm the master of hounds ) for a YEP event I have been reading the rules alot this week. With that thought is why i 1st posted to this tread with the RULE answer to your question. Todd broght up a point on score card being signed. Here is 1 more RULE reason you needed to go to the tree. Rule #13 states that a MOH/HD can make math error corrections to the score card. A good MOH/HD should recheck the math on all score cards and with the scores all that close should use a calculator. One other good point was made by blueticker in the order that the trees was scored

The trees were scored out of order. The order of tree was this:

Dog C
Dog A
Dog B

Dog's A and C were treed 20 yards apart. The Judge (Handler of Dog B), insisted we score A and C's trees together. I objected, but the judge ordered that we score A's 1st and then C's in that they were easiest to score in that order. Once A's tree had been scored, we went to C's. I realized I had lost, so I withdrew. They went to B's tree to score.

A good sportsman/guide would have withdrawn Dog B, as I withdrew Dog C. We both got beat. I'm NOT OUT LOOKING to get my dog qualified THROUGH THE CRACKS! The hunt was over. Nobody was going to forget to sign the card or miscalculate the scores. It was an RQE!

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Posted by troy on 08-06-2010 08:23 PM:

RQE,POOR BOY,BREED HUNT ect..... all is indefrent to this question

this original post was bottom line was can dogs be scrached for not scoring a tree a RULES QUESTION

this question as been answered .... rule 1 rule 17 page 49&50 of the advisor YES THEY CAN BE SCRACHED

as Todd and I both pointed out reasons why
...card not signed
...math error

either of them could make a difrance in the out come of this cast and can be corrected by the MOH/HD

Posted by ov_blues on 08-06-2010 08:41 PM:

Dog A and C get in a dog fight before the score card is turned in.
Dog A grabs a possum while walking out.

Two other distance possibilities that could happen.

Not saying either would have happened or that's the way I would want to win but some people will take a win anyway that they can get it. They figure if they don't play it all the way out, they'll lose their chance.

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Posted by CWS on 08-06-2010 10:45 PM:

I would not be able to look at someone and and feel I was doing them right if I were to uphold a scratch because they did not want to walk into a meaningless tree. Troy, all that matters is that the cast winner signs the card and the score is correct. Moh's do not even look at other scores on a score card. If the dog did not win the cast his score is meaningless hence why it is pointless to score a tree that cannot effect the outcome in a cast.

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Posted by troy on 08-06-2010 11:51 PM:

CSW...this post has been on for 10 hours now. It is painfuly obvious that you are missing some of the rules

you said ONLY the winnner needs to sign the scorecard Please read Rule #13

AS a MOH and whom I servered under as an apprentist DO check all score on a card and check the math IF a card would come into me with JUST ONE SIGNATRUE I would have to wounder if you hunted alone. and why you did not come back for a non hunting judge and toss the card out.

Im not here to sit and argue with you...you asked a question you got your answers.

I will give you a peice of advice...if you do not own one buy a rule book and an Advisor book....read them

Sit down with a MOH and ask them what all they look at on a score card and see what others do some my not chose to check all score and trust the judge and cast with math me personaly i like math and i do check them all.

Hope you keep hunting compotition it is fun with the right cast and im sorry that you drew into a cast that was not fun but it looks like from the scores it was a good competive cast means their were 3 good dogs out their and keep ya on your top A game

Posted by Brian-BleedzRed on 08-07-2010 01:51 AM:

I have!!!

quote:
Originally posted by CWS
So lets just say the same situation I described happened to you one night. You won the cast but dagon it if the deadline was 3 a.m. and it is now 2:10 a.m.

You just shinned youre last tree as the time in the hunt expired but ol slick willi treed his dog before the hunt time was over about a half a mile away and he says youre coming to score my dogs tree and if you don't youre scratched! Even though you will win weather his dog has a coon or a slick tree.

So you walk with him to find his dog treed and he takes 9 minutes to shine the tree and is now satisfied. Well it's back to the truck we go a half a mile plus away and by the time you make it back it's 2:50 a.m. you just missed deadline due to scorring a pointless tree.

See a problem yet????????

I have done it & would again!!!

That cast i won & made the late round of the FL state AKC hunt! Because i chose to walk in to the mans tree i didnt make deadline its called RESPECT!!!! Sounds to me you dont have any for anyone!! Quit cryin on here like a 10 yr old girl & go tightin up your loose treein dog up before you back on here cryin bout gettin minused again!!

Posted by CWS on 08-07-2010 11:14 PM:

You can ask anyone that knows me Troy I know the rules and I know them very well. The point is it should NOT be required to walk into a tree that can in no way shape or form effect the outcome of the cast. As an experienced handler I know when to hold them and when to fold them "as they say". I know when I'm out doged I know when I'm beat. I obviously knew the rule or else I would have not walked in there with him. The fact is I shouldn't have had to I won no matter what. Bleedz red I'm not even wasting my time replying to you're comment. I take pride in treating cast members with respect so do NOT question my character unless you know me personally. I would like to hear aof a few of you hear soon going way out of you're way to score a tree that is meaningless to the outcome of a cast. Maybe then you will have a different outlook on this.

quote:
Originally posted by troy
CSW...this post has been on for 10 hours now. It is painfuly obvious that you are missing some of the rules

you said ONLY the winnner needs to sign the scorecard Please read Rule #13

AS a MOH and whom I servered under as an apprentist DO check all score on a card and check the math IF a card would come into me with JUST ONE SIGNATRUE I would have to wounder if you hunted alone. and why you did not come back for a non hunting judge and toss the card out.

Im not here to sit and argue with you...you asked a question you got your answers.

I will give you a peice of advice...if you do not own one buy a rule book and an Advisor book....read them

Sit down with a MOH and ask them what all they look at on a score card and see what others do some my not chose to check all score and trust the judge and cast with math me personaly i like math and i do check them all.

Hope you keep hunting compotition it is fun with the right cast and im sorry that you drew into a cast that was not fun but it looks like from the scores it was a good competive cast means their were 3 good dogs out their and keep ya on your top A game

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Posted by OldSouth on 08-08-2010 05:22 AM:

The man paid to hunt the whole two hour hunt,The hunt is not over until all tree's are scored.He could have made you score the tree's in the proper order and you would still have to go to that tree.If you don't like the rules,maybe you could try fishing.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 08-08-2010 05:51 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by CWS
See I disagree 100% here. SPORTSMANSHIP would be HANDLER OF DOG B REALIZING that he was beat and his dog just came up a little "short". Shaking everyones hand and saying I will see you at the truck. What on earth would make someone walk several hundred yards to score a dogs tree that is meaningless. Shoot in this situation go ahead walk in there and score the tree, I could care less if you come back saying the dog had a groundhog or 30 coon up the tree, the tree is pointless.

Fact of the matter is a "crook" can try to get someone scratched in this kind of situation as a "last hope" situation. I was just beta by a better dog but I'm guna make this fellar walk to my dog a half a mile away and in actuality "I hope he doesn't" so I can scratch him!

That sound about right?

Just a wild guess but I would say you tick off as many people in the woods as you do on here. Sounds like maybe he just didn't like you and didn't want you to win. Maybe you allways want to go by the rules when it is in your favor. You brag about knowing the rules on here so much. He just wanted to show you he new them too. You come off pushy on here and I bet you do in the woods even if you don't realize it. Sounds like to me he just pushed back. I am sure you are going to say now just ask anyone how nice of guy I am. Well very few will tell you the truth about yourself. It is just an opinion BUT I woud say he was trying to make a point and it went over your head.

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Posted by oklared on 08-08-2010 12:51 PM:

cws, where and when have you ever won or placed in a ukc hunt or even won a cast?

Posted by CWS on 08-08-2010 05:45 PM:

Joe culler did I come across as any of these things Grady listed?You are still missing the point! The point is any member of the cast should not be required to walk to a meaningless tree. Just delete the points fill out the score card exchange hand shakes and go on with you're business.

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Just a wild guess but I would say you tick off as many people in the woods as you do on here. Sounds like maybe he just didn't like you and didn't want you to win. Maybe you allways want to go by the rules when it is in your favor. You brag about knowing the rules on here so much. He just wanted to show you he new them too. You come off pushy on here and I bet you do in the woods even if you don't realize it. Sounds like to me he just pushed back. I am sure you are going to say now just ask anyone how nice of guy I am. Well very few will tell you the truth about yourself. It is just an opinion BUT I woud say he was trying to make a point and it went over your head.

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Posted by CWS on 08-08-2010 05:48 PM:

I would love to list the wins I have but I do not have the time or desire to figure that out.

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
cws, where and when have you ever won or placed in a ukc hunt or even won a cast?

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Posted by branchvillekell on 08-08-2010 06:30 PM:

holy moly, all the fightin and bickerin goin on, i guess i will have to learn fast to be in the big leagues. crap like this turns people away no matter what. i dont care if i dont win, score my dog, he is there because i took him and he is doin his job. big deal. pleasure hunt again with a "friend". will you let him walk 2 miles to get his dog because yours done better? man, competition ruins dogs and people sometimes.

'PR' branchville mtn banjo man

Posted by on 08-08-2010 06:43 PM:

CWS, I would like for you to write a rulebook version of "meaningless tree". What is meaningless and what isn't? Write your version and then stand back and consider how full of holes your idea is. You would be the first one on here screaming about how you got screwed because the cast woudn't score your dogs meaningless tree.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 08-08-2010 07:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by heinz57
So you don't have 5 seconds to list your win?????

57

Jim he is going to be the fiirst to cry any way no matter what the rules are.

Heinz57 He won't even list his name and location so what ever he tells you is going to be made up. LMAO

Posted by oklared on 08-08-2010 07:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CWS
I would love to list the wins I have but I do not have the time or desire to figure that out.

JUST LIST ONE, SHURLEY THERE IS ONE THAT STANDS OUT, JUST ONE, OR JUST A UKC HUNT THAT YOU HUNTED IN AND A CAST MEMBER IN IT.

Posted by CWS on 08-08-2010 08:44 PM:

Sure I can list one. Spring classic back to back cast wins at upper sandusky ohio a few months back. My female I'm hunting now I made a nite ch in 6 hunts and won back to back to back nite champion wins and she is 2. Just drew joe culler from this board this past weekend at an RQE and won. Won nite chs the past two weeks before that as well. My 7 cast win streak just got broke last night. The english dog I handled I finished to a nite ch in 4 hunts and put 3 wins toward grand in 4 nite ch hunts, would be grand but he was killed at the age of 2. My female before that I won 580 dollars in pkc with and I finshed her to grand in 8 months. The male I owned at the same time was a nite ch with 3 wins toward grand and he was poisoned by a neighbor or he would be grand. In 3 akc casts I have won 2 of the 3. Does that satisfy you're question? Jim when that last second ticks of the hunt time any tree that cannot catch the cast leader/winner is in fact meaningless. It should just be deleted, see I'm entitled to my oppinions same as you all are. Attack me all you want, I can assure you I can take it. Coon hunting is fun or at least it should be. Rules are rules and I do my best to follow those rules but some need a good hard looking at because some things can definatly be improved.

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