UKC Forums - Angulation info direct from UKC

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- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Angulation info direct from UKC (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=363052)

Posted by Sandi on 07-28-2010 01:10 PM:

is there any way to link this to breed standards? Everyone should have availability to this info whether it be hunting line or show lines. This info will only help educate the general public in addition to those breeding and showing.

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Posted by skyblu on 07-28-2010 03:11 PM:

I WISH

My wish is that this info could be INCLUDED in the Coonhound rule book for everyone to see,
ESPECIALLY by some of the bench show judges giving top wins to straight shouldered, post legged hounds just because they stand like a statue on the bench.
Also, there's NOTHING in the breed standards stating that judges should penalize a dog for moving while on the bench. ANY BSJ with "qualifications" to be judging should be able to evaluate the dogs on the ground & recognize structure while gaiting, taking this into consideration. If a BSJ has a large entry, there's certainly nothing wrong with asking win contenders to gait singly or side-by-side as a memory refresher in order to make a final decision.
Without QUALIFIED judging, the present situation will unfortunately continue.

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-28-2010 03:20 PM:

Only Problum Is ..

These Hounds Are Winning Small Local Bench Shows >> What Choice does a Judge Have ??
3-4 Hounds of Different Breeds
and Different Classes ..

Each Getting Best of Breed .. or the Tri Facta of Show .. Breed- Class and Show ..

Heck in 4 Showings They have a Show Ch. and a Few More the wins They Have a Grand Show Ch.

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Posted by skyblu on 07-28-2010 03:35 PM:

Majestic

You're correct.
But the "big name" INCORRECT hounds winning at the well publicized & photographed shows are the ones too many people use for their SHOW breeding program because they want notaritiety instead of better conformation.
Too many BSJs make statements like "wasn't up on his feet enough" (wanted post legged hounds ), "dog was leaning" (unable to evaluate dog with novice handler), "down on feet" (unable to appreciate correct spring of pastern), "dog kept
moving" (recognizing only statues without knowledge or ability to recognize correct structure) etc. etc.

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Posted by Cleo on 07-28-2010 03:42 PM:

Rain got me again. I did get some pics but nothing you would be able to "judge". My puppy was very excited to have her pics taken! LOL!

I will get them this week. Both male and female come from good breeders. Breeders that plan, not just sell.

NO dog is perfect. There are handlers out there that know what they are doing to cover these faults. I don't think there is anything wrong with that! Part of it! But as you both said, ON the ground, a judge should be able to tell for the most part what is up with these dogs. I am not casting stones by any means! I love bench showing, but am WELL aware that I am not a very good handler. If I knew more...and thanks to this thread can see and learn.....I would be better.

If your in this for the money and the gold, you'll go home with a broken heart more often then not!

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Posted by riproarinkennel on 07-28-2010 03:58 PM:

Re: I WISH

quote:
Originally posted by skyblu
My wish is that this info could be INCLUDED in the Coonhound rule book for everyone to see,
ESPECIALLY by some of the bench show judges giving top wins to straight shouldered, post legged hounds just because they stand like a statue on the bench.

I SENT IN FOR THE IMFORMATION ON BECOMING A BENCH SHOW JUDGE. IN THE PACKET THAT I RECEIVED WAS ALL THE ANGULATION IMFORMATION WITH PICTURES. THAT WAS PROBABLY 3 YEARS OR MORE AGO. MAYBE RETESTING OF THE JUDGES EVERY NOW AND THEN WOULD HELP. NAW ............ THAT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN !

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Posted by skyblu on 07-28-2010 04:03 PM:

CLEO

You have a good attitude. I can relate to the "too excited" situation. I'm showing an experienced, trained TW gyp who LOVES to show & "give sugars" to me AND the BSJ. She's frequently penalized on the bench "for moving" because SOMETIMES she figures it's "party time." But she's CORRECT & I prefer to show a happy, tail wagging hound. This gyp can also tree coons with style. I'm just not able to survive competition hunts - too old & slow.

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Posted by skyblu on 07-28-2010 04:17 PM:

riproarinkennel

To retest BSJs probably wouldn't help because those BSJs unable to answer questions would just solicit help from those who CAN. Also, BSJs are sometimes difficult for small clubs to find, so eliminating BSjs because they failed the test or didn't bother to take the test could really put some clubs in a serious bind.

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Posted by Cleo on 07-28-2010 04:23 PM:

...and ya know what, skyblu ~ no one else in this world has to love her but you.

I almost sold out a few weeks back....I prayed over it hard! I think God let me know in His wonderful way that these hounds give me a reason to get going everyday. So they are here to stay as long as He see fit for me to borrow them

Just keep doing what your doing and have fun! That's what keeps us young!

Be blessed!

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-29-2010 01:55 PM:

Pasturn Angulation ..

AKC says "Slight" is this "Slight"

This is the Wife's 11 month old Pup "Buckwheat" and as you can see he has a 14^ Pasturn Angulation .. He very long in the
Foreleg and I hope he will Grow in to Them !!

As he ages the Pasturn Angle should incress a bit but shouldn't go over 18^ .. His Gate is real nice and Shows Extension and the Flex in the Pasturn and I'l try to get a short slow motion Video of the movement.

This angle is very important .. Endurance and the Prevention of Joint and legiment Damage . The Optimal Angualation for Endurance in a Hound is 17^-18^ and is Very Important to be breeding for..

Posted by Cleo on 07-29-2010 02:07 PM:

I wish we could get more BSJ's to come on here ~ not that your not doing a fine job, but I would like to see if they take the time to check all of this as they judge.

I know there are some out there that do so I wish they would join in with ideas!

Posted by riproarinkennel on 07-29-2010 03:20 PM:

Re: riproarinkennel

quote:
Originally posted by skyblu
To retest BSJs probably wouldn't help because those BSJs unable to answer questions would just solicit help from those who CAN. Also, BSJs are sometimes difficult for small clubs to find, so eliminating BSjs because they failed the test or didn't bother to take the test could really put some clubs in a serious bind.

LIKE I SAID ... AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

I CONSIDERED BECOMING A BENCH SHOW JUDGE TO HELP OUT AT OUR SMALL CLUB. ONCE I GOT THE PACKET, I REALIZED I STILL HAD A LOT TO LEARN. I'M STILL LEARNING.

I KNOW EVERYONE HAS SEEN THIS, ESPECIALLY ON THE SMALL CLUB FRONT : JUDGE TELLS YOU TO WALK YOUR DOG AND THEN PROCEEDS TO LOOK THROUGH HIS PAPERS OR CARRY ON A CONVERSATION WITH SOMEONE IN THE CROWD.

Posted by skyblu on 07-29-2010 04:23 PM:

Pet Peeves about gaiting

BSJs asking exhibitors to gait dogs who don't even both to look - too busy talking to others or watching something else.
OR
Pretending to know what they're seeing & then putting up a cowhocked dog cleverly stacked by a slick handler on the bench.

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Posted by s/s on 07-29-2010 06:24 PM:

Re: Re: riproarinkennel

Great informational thread..Those angle graphs are great!!..Thanks

Sabrina

Posted by Sandi on 07-30-2010 01:04 PM:

this is getting a lot of views lets keep it up! maybe we can make a difference after all

__________________
Heart Throb Coon Hounds and
show supplies
contact info: 440-645-7875 or
Heart.throbcoonhounds@gmail.com

Posted by Cleo on 07-30-2010 01:09 PM:

Once again, I failed to take pics due to the weather.....

I will try again tonight. I know I'll be able to get some in the morning. I'm off and I turn them out around 6 am while it's cool. I want you guys to judge them for me....

Thanks!

Posted by skyblu on 07-30-2010 02:30 PM:

We're waiting Cleo

I doubt we'll have many other volunteers. Some healthy, unbiased evaluations will be helpful if there are VARIED examples so that differences can be discussed and illustrated. Maybe Majestic will help with more line diagrams on the dogs presented.
In looking thru CB pages of winners, it's EASY to see where many of the NH winners have better conformation than some of the bench show winners shown on the same page. Let's BRING THOSE NH DOGS TO THE BENCHES & EDUCATE BSJs about correct conformation!

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Posted by Cleo on 07-30-2010 02:36 PM:

Soon brother.....very soon.....

Thats what I want to see~you guy's opinion.

Sometimes the truth hurts....I'll get over it! I didn't pick them cuz they're "perfect". I picked him cuz of they're breeding

Plus......they're RED!

Promise I'll get them! Someone will have to let me email them to them. I don't do very well on posting pics on here.....

Posted by skyblu on 07-30-2010 02:43 PM:

Cleo - email them to ME

I'll post them ASAP

skybluplotts@yahoo.com

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Posted by Cleo on 07-30-2010 02:45 PM:

Thanks....

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-30-2010 03:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cleo
Soon brother.....very soon.....

Sometimes the truth hurts....I'll get over it! I didn't pick them cuz they're "perfect". I picked him cuz of they're breeding

.....

Man you should see the way I look at my hounds !!! I'am Prit Tough on them !!

They Are a Different Type of Hound tho ... A Few more Wrinkles and Flue and Dulap on the Out Side ... LOL

But the Bones Better Be Right

Posted by Cleo on 07-30-2010 03:38 PM:

But as much as we would like to think our hounds are "perfect", they are not.

I didn't mean I don't put quality in my kennel. I would never think of breeding a litter that wasn't as close to perfect and would help the breed. That would just be silly and selfish. Only breeding to make a dime.

I can promise you there are no conformation culls at Off Roads. I don't get to hunt them like they are intended to. I really don't consider that a fault for them. I do OB and Conf and fixing to get into FT with them. They need to be as close to perfect as they can to compete in those sports as well.....

But they still aren't perfect.

Posted by AKS on 07-30-2010 05:04 PM:

balance

Anyone who knows me well, knows I am an advocate for better knowledge on angulation. I received a lot of training when I worked for many different professional handlers in AKC. This is a good thread, as many do not know what to look for or totally neglect caring altogether, but this still is point focused and not wholly focused.

When you look at a dog, it has to be evaluated on how ALL things work together to allow the dog to function to perform its specified job/function. Just taking any piece here and there does not determine you have a functionally sound animal. Proper angulation is great but if the topline or head or neck is incorrect, you still have an average animal. Let alone if the angles in the angulation are not balanced front-to-back, you're going to have a train wreck of a dog. I see this often.

For instance, I handled a Pointer male that was not as angulated front-to-back as I liked BUT he was balanced in his angles. He had an very nice topline and neck coming off his shoulders. He was a lacking in Pointer "type" though in his head. He moved EXCELLENT because his angles were balanced! We would say that he used what he had very well. He was able to due to balance and a good topline, etc. This male as a young dog won over others simply due to he moved well because of balance and function throughout. He could have been more angulated but he could move better than most because he was balanced.

When you look at a dog, it is the introcasies of how all those pieces and parts work together to make up one complete picture. A dog that is correctly made throughout will be smooth on the ground...it almost floats when you have a fine animal on the ground in front of you.

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Posted by skyblu on 07-30-2010 06:38 PM:

AKS - RIGHT ON!

I too have been an AKC professional handler in the Allbreed ring.
I now use what I've learned when I judge bench shows. In addition to evaluating dogs on the ground (I ask for a triangle when gaiting) I ALSO stand back from the benches to see & compare profiles - that's the best way to evaluate overall balance. Too many BSJs "hover" over the benches and dogs without getting an accurate picture of the total dog. "Hovering" promotes "fault judging" instead of the evaluation of the whole dog.

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Posted by skyblu on 07-30-2010 06:41 PM:

AKS

How far are you from Long Branch, Texas? How much would it cost our club to have you judge one of our bench shows?
Feel free to send me a PM.

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