UKC Forums - The Lipper Strain

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- Treeing Walkers (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=52)
-- The Lipper Strain (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=362922)

Posted by Diggerman on 07-09-2010 06:33 PM:

With a thousand litters on the ground ,somebody would have had to get it right. If Lipper is the reproducer that he is promoted to be and has impacted and changed the breed for the better, Which he has probrobly done, wouldn't this litter be a step backwards?I am a Lipper fan also and am curious to see how they turn out. However if they are what you are hypeing them up tobe, then everybody since would have had to failed in thier breeding programs. Not likely. So is this just another promo for $$$$. probrobly, Will haveing Lipper up close in your ped give you a designer ped, yes. Will it make your hound better?Only if you agree that all of the breeding since Lippers direct breedings, were watered downfailures..Or am I missing something?

Posted by Brandon Coselman on 07-09-2010 06:41 PM:

You guys crack me up... Give the man and the dog some credit!!! Mr. Hopkins and Lipper have and prolly will continue to do more for the walker breed that most of us dream of...

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Posted by Hopkins/Lipper on 07-09-2010 06:47 PM:

Re: Re: Why...?.........Maybe-------

quote:
Originally posted by HistoryNutt
I agree Tim. It is exciting to see someone get back into something they loved. Also this semen is 26 years old taken when Lipper was only two. That is exciting as to what science can help us accomplish.

Lipper had a big Impact on the breed and these little Lippers could have the next big impact. It will be exciting to watch.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim and Don... Excited is a good word but not big enough to express how I am feeling about the most talked about litter of unborn coonhounds in the world. I am about to explode..BOOM!!! The realization of actually holding a LIPPER pup from him when he was 2 years old from semen I collected 26 years ago is just a miracle. I cannot explain how much this means to me and the IMPACT that it will have on the coonhunting world...Will HOUSE"S LIPPER please come back to the front of the line!!!!

Tom Hopkins
Hopkins/Lipper

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AND NOW...
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Posted by Late Night J on 07-09-2010 10:41 PM:

Big Lipp

Diggerman, I dont think Mr. Hopkins is saying that todays dogs are a failure but I will tell you what IM saying. Im saying that some strains in todays Walker breed have taken a turn for the worst. Now when I say that I mean that todays dog is quick to get treed and quick to give somebody a chance to LIE about seeing a coon. I know alot of professional handlers that say all they need is a dog that will get treed and stay treed to win a cast. I think that after a while of breeding those type dogs you start to loose some tracking ability and accuracy. Now another reason those types are dogs are so big now days is because alot of people just dont have the big land that they did 20 years ago. Today alot of folks hunt in small sections and dont want a dog that will go where the coon goes but will just get treed in that section. I dont think this Lipper cross will help the bucket feeder hunters program. Now as far as "DESIGNER PED ???" I think instead of addressing the Lipper cross you should look at alot of these "ALL GRAND" tree dogs. Folks Im only saying what most of everybody on here already knows. Also Id like to add , I AM NOT downing tree dogs. A dog that wont tree is absolutely WORTHLESS !! But one that trees and dont have the coon falls in the same category . JMO which aint much !

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Posted by Diggerman on 07-10-2010 01:11 AM:

Re: Big Lipp

quote:
Originally posted by Late Night J
Diggerman, I dont think Mr. Hopkins is saying that todays dogs are a failure but I will tell you what IM saying. Im saying that some strains in todays Walker breed have taken a turn for the worst. Now when I say that I mean that todays dog is quick to get treed and quick to give somebody a chance to LIE about seeing a coon. I know alot of professional handlers that say all they need is a dog that will get treed and stay treed to win a cast. I think that after a while of breeding those type dogs you start to loose some tracking ability and accuracy. Now another reason those types are dogs are so big now days is because alot of people just dont have the big land that they did 20 years ago. Today alot of folks hunt in small sections and dont want a dog that will go where the coon goes but will just get treed in that section. I dont think this Lipper cross will help the bucket feeder hunters program. Now as far as "DESIGNER PED ???" I think instead of addressing the Lipper cross you should look at alot of these "ALL GRAND" tree dogs. Folks Im only saying what most of everybody on here already knows. Also Id like to add , I AM NOT downing tree dogs. A dog that wont tree is absolutely WORTHLESS !! But one that trees and dont have the coon falls in the same category . JMO which aint much !

Look, I am not downing Lipper or hopkins, What I am saying is If a sire , any sire, that does that much for its breed, his offspring should be better every generation, especially if line bred. Therefor these pups ,albeit direct off Lipper should not be as good as a well line bred Lipper hound that would actually carry more Lipper blood. or am I wrong? I also am not impressed by alot of ALL GRANDS either. I believe If you want an unadulterated hound you have to go to the biggame breeders ,Where a hound has to work for a liveing, and culling is done according to ability, not name, and slick treeing is not tolerated

Posted by BAWL_TRACK on 07-10-2010 01:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Diggerman
With a thousand litters on the ground ,somebody would have had to get it right. If Lipper is the reproducer that he is promoted to be and has impacted and changed the breed for the better, Which he has probrobly done, wouldn't this litter be a step backwards?I am a Lipper fan also and am curious to see how they turn out. However if they are what you are hypeing them up tobe, then everybody since would have had to failed in thier breeding programs. Not likely. So is this just another promo for $$$$. probrobly, Will haveing Lipper up close in your ped give you a designer ped, yes. Will it make your hound better?Only if you agree that all of the breeding since Lippers direct breedings, were watered downfailures..Or am I missing something?

if they treed coons then whats the difference in breeding to dogs later down the road that trees coons now.... how you going to say thats backwards .....if they dog treeing coon is pretty simple ....... what can you breed for now that you couldnt breed for then ...... maybe styles but thats about it

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Posted by honalieh on 07-10-2010 06:13 AM:

Re: Re: Big Lipp

quote:
Originally posted by Diggerman
Look, I am not downing Lipper or hopkins, What I am saying is If a sire , any sire, that does that much for its breed, his offspring should be better every generation, especially if line bred. Therefor these pups ,albeit direct off Lipper should not be as good as a well line bred Lipper hound that would actually carry more Lipper blood. or am I wrong?

Since you asked, I will answer. YES, YOU ARE WRONG!

(1) Offspring should be better every generation? That presumes that Lipper is the weak link in the pedigree. Otherwise, where is the improvement coming from?

(2) especially if linebred? Linebreeding will not improve on the best individuals of a line. If anything, it will often lead to a regression to the average of the bloodline. By using the best individuals you may pull the average of the line up, but, except in rare situations, you will not get pups that exceed the best of the line.

(3) It sounds like you're buying into that fable that a good stud dog will consistently produce pups as good or better than himself. I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANY "OUTSTANDING" DOG DO THAT. That's a marketing gimmick that's simply not true.

Posted by on 07-10-2010 06:51 AM:

I have always heard that but it never made any sense to me. The dog can only be so good and that's it. To think they can get better every litter if bred properly is far fetched in my opinion.

Posted by Knox on 07-10-2010 11:45 AM:

I agree................

quote:
Originally posted by Joey
I have always heard that but it never made any sense to me. The dog can only be so good and that's it. To think they can get better every litter if bred properly is far fetched in my opinion.

Never made any sense to me either..................

Its a gamble any time you breed and raise pups, most of the time the genetics are there to make a coon-dog, you have to have the right trainer to bring out the best in it...

Just my thought......................Tim

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Posted by HistoryNutt on 07-10-2010 12:34 PM:

Re: Re: Big Lipp

quote:
Originally posted by Diggerman
Look, I am not downing Lipper or hopkins, What I am saying is If a sire , any sire, that does that much for its breed, his offspring should be better every generation, especially if line bred. Therefor these pups ,albeit direct off Lipper should not be as good as a well line bred Lipper hound that would actually carry more Lipper blood. or am I wrong? I also am not impressed by alot of ALL GRANDS either. I believe If you want an unadulterated hound you have to go to the biggame breeders ,Where a hound has to work for a liveing, and culling is done according to ability, not name, and slick treeing is not tolerated

If you will look at the breeding of the mama of this Litter Of Impact, you will see it IS breeding Lipper BACK to the Lipper Strain.

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Posted by Diggerman on 07-10-2010 01:37 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Big Lipp

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
Since you asked, I will answer. YES, YOU ARE WRONG!

(1) Offspring should be better every generation? That presumes that Lipper is the weak link in the pedigree. Otherwise, where is the improvement coming from?

(2) especially if linebred? Linebreeding will not improve on the best individuals of a line. If anything, it will often lead to a regression to the average of the bloodline. By using the best individuals you may pull the average of the line up, but, except in rare situations, you will not get pups that exceed the best of the line.

(3) It sounds like you're buying into that fable that a good stud dog will consistently produce pups as good or better than himself. I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANY "OUTSTANDING" DOG DO THAT. That's a marketing gimmick that's simply not true.

Oh well ,I have been wrong before. But I would like to know 1) what kind of breeding a program doesn't strive for improvement? 2) Line breeding and proper culling will stack desireable traits and limit undesireable traits 3) No, I haven't bought into the stud dog thing. I try to research Lines that fit my type of hunting and try to pick hounds from breeders(not promoters) who are continueing to improve those lines.

Posted by Diggerman on 07-10-2010 01:43 PM:

Sorry

Sorry Mr. Hopkins, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. I just asked an honest question,no disrespect intended. Good luck with your litter

Posted by Hopkins/Lipper on 07-10-2010 02:41 PM:

Reinforcing LIPPER TRAITS..

Hey guys...If all dogs got better and better with every generation, even with careful line breeding where would it end, how much better coulds they get? The truth is every great once in a while comes along a dog like LIPPER that is overloaded with traits and characteristics that serious hunters desire. LIPPER was one such hound. He had an overabundance of everything...a burning desire to hunt hard and fast, an exceptional nose, highly intelligant,unbelievable overpowering mouth, and was a drown out LOUD pressure treed dog that was extremely accurate. He was born with this and passed it to his descendants with great success. To bring back these concentrated traits from his 26 year old semen from when he was 2, will strengthen his contribution to the breed and bring back what has been lost or watered down over the past 26 years. It puts more meat in the stew.

PS... THIS A MUST READ FOR DIGGERMAN..

Tom Hopkins
Hopkins/Lipper

Posted by josh on 07-10-2010 04:31 PM:

Why now?

I recon 26 years might be just enough for most to forget all the baggage that came with Lipper...

Posted by POTOMAC on 07-10-2010 04:42 PM:

dont forget guys its not just breeding/the pups born and instant coon dog.it takes alot of time and hardwork to bringout the natural born gifts of these dogs and lets face it just like anything else most of todays hunters are to impatient and lazy to put the time into a hound to bring out its top attributes so they get passed around and simply done nothing with. this is not the hounds fault it is the hunters and i hope mr hopkins hand picks and cks out everybody that ends up witha pup. oh and there is very few that can afford to just buy one and to me there is no satisfaction in that. instead of getting 10 hounds and hunting them 1 nite get 1 hound and spend 10 nites in the woods with them/be patient and train your own. lets face it the traits that are bred into a pup are only good if they get the oppurtunity to deveelop them. jmo

Posted by Hopkins/Lipper on 07-10-2010 04:46 PM:

Read the Above Thread..

The WHY NOW question is pretty well addressed in the post just above your post OH WISE ONE.
Tom Hopkins
Hopkins/LIPPER

Posted by Hopkins/Lipper on 07-10-2010 05:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by POTOMAC
dont forget guys its not just breeding/the pups born and instant coon dog.it takes alot of time and hardwork to bringout the natural born gifts of these dogs and lets face it just like anything else most of todays hunters are to impatient and lazy to put the time into a hound to bring out its top attributes so they get passed around and simply done nothing with. this is not the hounds fault it is the hunters and i hope mr hopkins hand picks and cks out everybody that ends up witha pup. oh and there is very few that can afford to just buy one and to me there is no satisfaction in that. instead of getting 10 hounds and hunting them 1 nite get 1 hound and spend 10 nites in the woods with them/be patient and train your own. lets face it the traits that are bred into a pup are only good if they get the oppurtunity to deveelop them. jmo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well said it is not just who afford one of these little LIPPERS that matters. The key is also to get them to serious hunters. I however believe that who ever is invested that much in one of these pieces of history, will follow through with the hard hunting or will hire someone who will. I will be as certain as possible that who ever gets one ,will put them in the woods and in the winners circle. Also whoever gets one will have the whole coonhound world watching. Thanks for your insight.

Tom Hopkins
Hopkins/Lipper

Posted by GA DAWG on 07-10-2010 05:36 PM:

I wish you great with them..You can tell your extremly excited about them!

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Posted by chi chi on 07-10-2010 07:47 PM:

lipper

i sure hope this litter turns out good because what a man is going to have to pay for a pup they had better be awesome im hearing 3-5000 for one by the other board. good luck on your adventure with the semen hope she has a bakers dozen!

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Posted by bluff country on 07-11-2010 03:35 AM:

First off anybody that would give 5 grand for a weanling puppy is retarted , too many things can happen before they become famous . Second , in the last 26 years I have hunted with direct and / or indirect decendants of Lipper that were drop dead gorgeous , extremely loud , get in the country , lightning fast on the track , radical tree dogs that had 2 looking down coon treeing dogs . I have also hunted with direct and / or indirect descendants of Lipper that were collie looking , rat terrier mouthed , not get out of your light , some wanted to run all night , some wouldn't tree , some wanted to tree on trees with no coon , plain old dogs . Mr. Hopkins , I'm glad you are excited about what you have and what you are doing ! What i have just said about Lipper probably could be said about anybodys stud dog . This is in no way a knock on you or Lipper . Just remember chocolate ice cream isn't for everybody and neither is Lipper . I like a little bit of both , too much of either one and it makes me sick ! If most of us look back far enough I'm sure Ole Lipper is in there some where , along with alot of other good dogs . I've got him a few times in the back of my dogs too . I just wish I knew where ole Joe put his share of Lippers load . Good luck and good huntin' !

Posted by Larry Hall on 07-11-2010 07:56 AM:

What sort of a reproducer was Lipper? what sort of percentages of pups made anything worthwhile..

My impression and recollection was not positive, and i still am not a lipper fan to this day...

But you can't deny he threw a lot of pups!

Am I unfairly judging the dog? I am not impressed by promotion or marketing, but results..

There's a couple of hounds up close to Lipper that I really like however and that might make it worth while if he gets a good stud dog..

Posted by josh on 07-11-2010 03:44 PM:

Im a little slow, so maybe someone wiser than I can help me out...

The walker breed is apparently at a point where only some 26 year old semen can save it.

This semen is from the most popular stud in the history of the breed....Was his impact not already felt?

How can the most influencial stud of the past have no resposibility for where the breed is at today?

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-11-2010 03:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
Im a little slow, so maybe someone wiser than I can help me out...

The walker breed is apparently at a point where only some 26 year old semen can save it.

This semen is from the most popular stud in the history of the breed....Was his impact not already felt?

How can the most influencial stud of the past have no resposibility for where the breed is at today?

Very Simple 26 years of "Poor Back Yard Uneducated Breedings"

It Just may take this Old Semen to Fix it All or at least get it Back to a good Start..

Thats why Europe's Hound Breeding have been Preformed by Professional Houndsmen and Kennel Masters for the past 500 years or so ..

Not in "Joes" Back yard with Who knows What.

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Posted by josh on 07-11-2010 04:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
Very Simple 26 years of "Poor Back Yard Uneducated Breedings"

It Just may take this Old Semen to Fix it All or at least get it Back to a good Start..

Thats why Europe's Hound Breeding have been Preformed by Professional Houndsmen and Kennel Masters for the past 500 years or so ..

Not in "Joes" Back yard with Who knows What.

Good start? You go right ahead and keep having your fits of nostalgia looking at old pictures and dreaming of the "old days" I was hunting at that time and dont miss them a bit.

Europe? You have to be joking...

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-11-2010 04:19 PM:

I'am Happy Your Secure with "Mr. Billy Bob Whoever" making a Breeding decision that Automatically gets a "Set of Breeding Papers" on a Litter that gets added to the Gene Pool ..

How about that litter being Hunt Tested before they Recieve a Set of Breeding Papers .. As is now Every Cull in the Litter Gets Papers which allows them the Enter the Breeding Gene Pool ..

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