UKC Forums - Lay up dog yes or no?

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Posted by honalieh on 06-14-2010 04:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Not so sure i would agree that a layup dog necesarilly is a coldnosed dog, I think it has more to do with brains and desire than nose.

I agree. A lay-up dog is not necessarily a cold nosed dog, though it can be.

I've seen some very good answers on this post so far.

Yes, sometimes you will see them dancing on their hind legs with their head in the air.

Yes, sometimes the coon may be a tree or two downwind, or in my territory, in grapevine clusters that spread across the treetops.

One lay-up dog may act different than the next lay-up dog.

The basic is that they are not getting the scent from the ground OR from the tree trunk. They are getting it from the air current.

Posted by l.lyle on 06-14-2010 06:05 AM:

These are some good posts. It probably would drive somebody nuts on a hunt where they did not know the dog. Once you hunt your dog enough to see if take cold tracks and work them out, being silent or hot nose ought not cross your mind. If it's a "pop-up" instead of a lay-up, probably another dog will be on it too. Unless you are fortunate enough to have two good layup dogs. I sometime think it would be nice to have him walking around on his hind legs so I would know the minute I walk up but I've had him do it enough know him.

Sometimes I hold him back and give the other dogs a five minute start. If they don't strike when they work to the marsh, I figure they are not walking and then turn him loose. Likely within a hundred yards or two he will locate twice or three times and then chop. Another sign I get is when I first get there if he is treeing over his shoulder, look out. Sometimes he will move to another tree and stand on it treeing but barking in some other direction than up the tree. Sometime its the right tree but often it is a couple trees over. You just got to watch his head and look where he is pointing but that's still tricky because its hard to tell where the breeze is when you're on the ground. I've even tried smoking a cigarette but haven't always had that help. I don't recall any I've had doing it on still, foggy nights. Usually there's seabreeze moving.

I hunt in thick coons where their clock is set by the moon and tides, not even by daylight and dark, but every month or so they just aren't walking. When that happens, I just got to hope I put the collars on and took the magnets out. It is good to have a dog that can do it even if he moves trees. Mine cannot take minus for it when coon found.

Posted by gfults on 06-14-2010 07:03 AM:

Re: Layups

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lovekamp
Anyone who has hunted with a good layup dog can easily tell what they are doing . My Banger dog has always been very good at this and he is not silent on track . When he trees without opening its a layup. I've seen him do it from the tailgate and off the leash. He is always very acurate when he trees a layup. It is an extremely nice trait to have in a hound.
Mike Lovekamp

Just because a dog just falls treed without opening on the ground dont mean its a layup. The dog couldve just ran across the coon and ambushed the coon and he had to climb or die!! Another thing Ive noticed about dogs treed on a layup coon is most of the time they wont be rared up on a tree. The reason dogs rare up on trees is cuz thats where they smelled the coon last. Theres really no reason for a dog to be up on a tree if they've treed a layup in most cases cuz the coon aint been down to lay a track. Ive only seen 1 dog in my life that I'd call a good layup dog. He was a belly up tree dog but on a layup, he'd be sittin back flat on his butt just under the limbs of the trees around treeing like hell.

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Posted by l.lyle on 06-14-2010 08:20 AM:

Re: Re: Layups

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
Just because a dog just falls treed without opening on the ground dont mean its a layup. The dog couldve just ran across the coon and ambushed the coon and he had to climb or die!! Another thing Ive noticed about dogs treed on a layup coon is most of the time they wont be rared up on a tree. The reason dogs rare up on trees is cuz thats where they smelled the coon last. Theres really no reason for a dog to be up on a tree if they've treed a layup in most cases cuz the coon aint been down to lay a track. Ive only seen 1 dog in my life that I'd call a good layup dog. He was a belly up tree dog but on a layup, he'd be sittin back flat on his butt just under the limbs of the trees around treeing like hell.

The only time mine sits on his but away from a tree is while it is drizzling or just finished. And it's straight over his head.

Posted by gfults on 06-14-2010 12:04 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Layups

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
The only time mine sits on his but away from a tree is while it is drizzling or just finished. And it's straight over his head.

EWWWWWW!!!!

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Posted by CWS on 06-14-2010 01:21 PM:

Lay up? Doubtfull. If a dog is really winding a coon in will not be standing right on the tree and also it will miss a good percent of trees it winds them on. I mean seriously think about it, there's hundresds of trees within a couple acres that are all side by side. The chances of youre dog "winding" a coon with no track and being on the right tree are slim, very slim.

The coon got up the tree sometime. It didn't just appear in the tree. If there is a such thing as a "lay up" dog I have never been with one and I have been with some of the best coon treers around!!!

EXAMPLE: Turn youre dog loose that's normally a good strike dog.

10 minutes goes by without a peep, and BAM!!!!!!!! TREE EM

Walk in there and there sets a big ol coon in a huge oak tree. Did my dog that is normally wide open on track just tree a lay up?

No, he came right up on the coon and the coon rather then run and create a track just went right up the first tree it was by.

All coon do not try to outrun a dog, some would rather just go up the first tree they come by and then we get to believing we have a lay up dog. I'm sure many of you will say how wrong I am and yada yada yada but just for a moment thing about how many trees are around that ONE single tree youre dog was supposedly winding one on. Do you really think that it is going to pick the right tree? Maybe 5 out of 10 times if its lucky. like I said soemtime or another that coon laid a track, you all might have cold nosed dogs but lay up? Nah, if you do you will see many slick trees.

Posted by john Duemmer on 06-14-2010 01:48 PM:

CWS im sure it happens alot just the way you describe it, around here i think the coyotes have trained some to just popup, but i have also seen my dog strike on scent in the air on the lead and manage to locate the right tree.
One night we pulled intoa spot we were gonna hunt along a big corn field and saw a coon sittin up on the other edge. We cut the dogs down the other side towards the woods and went on hunting. Acouple hours later when we came out of the woods with the dogs on lead we walked the edge we had seen the coon sittin up and my dog winded that coon and opened, I figured the coon had come down and moved so i turned loose. Took her a couple minutes with her nose in the air to locate that tree but she had him sittin in the same spot he was two hours earlier. I would call that a LAYUP.

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Posted by CWS on 06-14-2010 02:09 PM:

I agree with you but also that coon still at sometime or another left a track: But all i'm saying is if youre dog tryes to lay up coons that leave a wave of air scent you will walk to many slick trees.

I witnessed my grand nite ch female stand on her back feet 3 times in 4 years and lay up 3 coon. I would have been minused on all 3 trees as well because she was not standing on the tree but near 15-20 ft. off it.

I didn't care for it myself. A good dog can wind a coon and get the general idea of it's where about then take the track it laid to the right tree, that's a nice dog.

I hunt close to several roads with fence rows that come off both sides of the woods and many many times my little female has made me so nervous because she will take off for the road but it never fails. She will go straight to a tree on the fence rows and bam tree if the wind is blowing right. When she's in the dog box if you pass a dead coon recently hit or a crossing coon she will go nuts in the dog box even at 55 mph speeds. She uses her nose to wind and find the track, then from there she takes the track to the tree.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-14-2010 03:16 PM:

If you want to know if you have a layup dog either train it to do it or test it to see if it figured it out it self.
Put a roll cage in a tree and leave it for a few hours. Then take your dog down wind and cast it into the wind. I wouldn't do it till they are good at trailing and treeing though. It is hard to get them to learn to trail when they are looking for air scent.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-14-2010 03:33 PM:

The only differance it makes on hot or cold is the differance in distance down wind they can smell it and a hot nose dog will have less trouble getting acurate. Becouse of the scent pool under the tree. They have to find the center or strongest part of the pool. Some will air scent to the pool then go to checking the tree trunks for scent. That might take a colder nose becouse the coon hasn't been down in a while.
There are a lot of varibles in finding a coon in a tree with air scent. Direstion of wind, how strong the wind is, if it has been blowing the same way for a long time, damp air, hot air, how thick of woods the tree is in and a lot more. In damp still conditions they better know how to work pool scent well.
I have trained lots of dogs to find cadaver in trees were there is no trail going to the tree at all. So checking the trunk didn't help them. They had to learn to get to the place were they could smell it the best and give there alert. Then it was up to you to figure out were it was by knowing the wind and other conditions. Most get pretty accurate at picking the tree though.

Posted by CWS on 06-14-2010 03:45 PM:

I don't believe a dog can be trained to wind coon. It either does or it doesn't. The best coon dogs and the ones that are consistent are the ones that were naturals.

You can drag coon tails all day long, you can release 20 coon to a youn dog but if they don't have the natural abillity then they will never be consistent coon treers.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-14-2010 03:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CWS
I don't believe a dog can be trained to wind coon. It either does or it doesn't. The best coon dogs and the ones that are consistent are the ones that were naturals.

You can drag coon tails all day long, you can release 20 coon to a youn dog but if they don't have the natural abillity then they will never be consistent coon treers.

Well come over and bring a caged coon and a pup some time. I don't mind showing anyone how.

Posted by on 06-14-2010 04:05 PM:

I'm convinced that 90% of the "layup " dogs out there are really just silent trailing.

Posted by tx slick tree on 06-14-2010 04:50 PM:

some of you talking about a dog being a tree or two off from the coon. some of these real wild coons around here will walk over a tree or more sometimes. a dog that trees where the coon went up will be off but a dog that uses his nose will be under the tree where the coon is. some coons will walk over several trees an bail out on a dog too. just from reading i would magine some of these dogs are running up on the coons and they climb up and then walk over a tree or two and folks think the dogs treed a lay up. the dog is just treeing where the coon went up.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-14-2010 05:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CWS
I don't believe a dog can be trained to wind coon. It either does or it doesn't. The best coon dogs and the ones that are consistent are the ones that were naturals.

You can drag coon tails all day long, you can release 20 coon to a youn dog but if they don't have the natural abillity then they will never be consistent coon treers.

Well come over and bring a caged coon and a pup some time. I don't mind showing anyone how.

Posted by Emily on 06-14-2010 08:07 PM:

I believe most hounds can be taught to be layup dogs, although few of us do. Here's why.

In search and rescue, there's two kinds of dogs, air scent dogs, who work head up and trailing dogs, like bloodhounds, that work on scent trails, usually head down unless the trail is very hot. Only hounds are good at following a trail on the ground, but other breeds are generally used for air scent--German shepherds, etc. When you are looking for a person who may be in trouble, but don't know who it is, you want an air scent dog. Same when you are at a disaster scene and want to find all the bodies, whoever they are. When you are looking for a specific person and know where they were last seen, or have a scent object that smells of them, you want a hound.
You can teach a hound air scent work, but it is really hard to teach a non-hound breed to trail.

Most people do not want their hounds to be really cold nosed. I have a friend in search and rescue who has trailed criminal scent trails that were several weeks old with her redbones. We spend enough time in the woods without our dogs following two week old coon trails!

My hounds are house dogs. First thing they do when I let them out into the fenced yard in the morning is stand on the front steps and take in all the smells from the surroundings. If there's a coon just outside the fence somewhere, they will tell me, just as if it were a layup. Baroo and right to the nearest spot on the fence to the coon.

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Posted by l.lyle on 06-14-2010 08:28 PM:

Maybe we can agree that silent and tight dogs have a history of being that way. You can't hardly get a decent race out of one even on a good track.

Maybe we can also agree that even a pup should be able to tree on a hot pop-up. So if you have several dogs treeing hard up on a tree it's probably not a lay-up.

I agree that if a coon is up a tree it didn't just appear there. It had to leave a trail. However, a good sized oak is 60 feet tall around here. If you had a coon hid under a bushel basket sixty feet upwind most anything should be able to smell it and get real excited at the live scent. I realy can't imagine why a dog would want to ignore hot live scent in order to go sniff out a barely smellable track going up a tree for any reason other than putting pluss points on paper. My dogs sure aren't smart enough to think like that. Also I would not want a tree sniffer checking every tree in the woods treeing on some faint smell. That's the kind of dog I think would have acuuracy problems. How could he tell if the trail was going up or coming down?

The farther a coon is the more the live scent is dispersed and the less likely he will pay it much attention. Out in woods, I tree very few lay-ups. Most of them occur near the edge of the marsh, but I recon a field or cutdown or someting would have the same effect. It has to be where the air currents have a tendancy to plummet towards the ground. A lay-up dog has to move to stay with the scent in the air. Otherwise he would just be standing there barking. If the air isn't coming pretty near straight down (say around a 45 degree angle) it must be so dispersed that the dog doesn't pay it much attention.

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 06-14-2010 09:03 PM:

Just How much Nose (Olfactory Size) is Required to Trail a Coon ???

We know that a German Shepherd is on the fringe of Having Enough Olfactory to Trail a Very Hot Coon Trail.

German Shepherd Crossed to Hounds Were Very Good in the Early Field Trials and So were Hound X Greyhound Crosses..

What if thru the introduction of other Dogs eather by Accident or on purpose have Reduced the Size of the Olfactory to the Point that some Hounds can only Trail a Feeding Coon Track but Can't Handle a Coon on the Run Track and Just Falls Treed at that Point ??

The Hounds Get their Olfactory Size from the Bloodhound but
Then thru Breeding to Obtain the Different Breeds of Hounds and Bird Dog the Size of the Olfactory was Reduced ..

To Develope the English Fox Hound, Fox Terrier , Grayhound and Several other Non Hounds were Used on the Base Line of St. Huberts hound (Bloodhound) and the Talbet Hound (The White Base Color Hound) Thus Reducing the Size of the Org. Olfactory System ..

Number of dog olfactory receptor cells = 1 billion
Number of bloodhound olfactory receptor cells = 4 billion (Shier, D., Butler, J. and Lewis, R. Hole's Human Anatomy & Physiology, Boston: McGraw Hill, 2004)
Surface area of olfactory epithelium (contains olfactory receptor cells) in humans = 10 cm2 (Bear, M.F., Connors, B.W. and Pradiso, M.A., Neuroscience: Exploring the Brain, 2nd edition, Baltimore: Lippincott Williams and Wilkins, 2001, p. 269)
Surface area of bloodhound olfactory epithelium = 59 in2 (Shier, D., Butler, J. and Lewis, R. Hole's Human Anatomy & Physiology, Boston: McGraw Hill, 2004)
Area of olfactory epithelium in some dogs = 170 cm2 (Bear, M.F., Connors, B.W. and Pradiso, M.A., Neuroscience: Exploring the Brain, 2nd edition, Baltimore: Lippincott Williams and Wilkins, 2001, p. 269)
Area of olfactory epithelium in cats = 21 cm2 (Bradshaw, J., Behavioral biology, in The Waltham Book of Dog and Cat Behaviour, ed. C. Thorne, Oxford: Pergamon Press, 1992)

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Posted by Lakeland Kennel on 06-14-2010 09:08 PM:

I agree with JiM, 90% of what some folks call "lay up" dpgs are just silent btrailers. Most of the good lay up dogs I have seen were cold nosed, open trailers. I have seen one Cur that was a very good lay up dog.

I have hounds that strike out of the dog box while traveling down the road.

I sell pups to bear hunters who make them "rig dogs", dogs that strike a bear or lion off of a dog box traveling down the road.

Bobcat dogs often tree off of the "air scent" because bobcats sometimes climb a tree where they don't leave scent on the side of a tree.

Lay-up dogs are born that way, not trained.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-14-2010 09:21 PM:

I have had a air scent dog strike a person almost a half mile away. The 45 degree thing and why a dog doesn't normaly hit it is that they stay close to the tree line. If it is on the edge of the tree line the dog would have to be running out in the open field to hit it. An air scent dog can run under a lot of coon and never know it is there if it doesn't get down wind of it.
That is why a bird dog is allways worked into the wind. There are a lot of good man tracking dogs that are not hounds. One of the best man trackers I saw was a Airdale but law enforcement usea a lot of Mals. and GSD too.
I would guess that the best thing to have in the coon dog world is one that will work the pool scent best. That is why I leave the trap when I do a release. They have to recognize that it is just pool scent and check for a lesser track scent leaveing it. I have seen more get hung up in pool scent than ones that actualy learned to get good at working it.
By the way the half mile on a person was perfect conditions and flat land. Was allso a very good dog working my wife.
Go read the rules to a AKC tracking test. They cut a track and if they go over 6 feet or so the wrong way and they are minused.
Most dogs trail weather it is a hound or shepard but actual man tracking isn't done as fast as a man normaly walks and I would say few do it these days.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-14-2010 09:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lakeland Kennel
I agree with JiM, 90% of what some folks call "lay up" dpgs are just silent btrailers. Most of the good lay up dogs I have seen were cold nosed, open trailers. I have seen one Cur that was a very good lay up dog.

I have hounds that strike out of the dog box while traveling down the road.

I sell pups to bear hunters who make them "rig dogs", dogs that strike a bear or lion off of a dog box traveling down the road.

Bobcat dogs often tree off of the "air scent" because bobcats sometimes climb a tree where they don't leave scent on the side of a tree.

Lay-up dogs are born that way, not trained.

I would say some are born or tought by life experience's. Then some are tought by people that want to take the time to do it. Few will ever know for sure how there dog is finding the tree becouse they are not there when they do it. A heck of a lot are tought on drags and put in that habbit before they have the chance to learn air scent.
If you can teach a dog to follow a track I don't see why it is so hard for people to think it is imposible to teach them to work the air. Air scent isn't as sure of way to find a coon but it is actually easier and faster to train for than trailing.
What about the dogs I trained to find dead people under water. They didn't come out of the womb that way.

Posted by john Duemmer on 06-14-2010 10:03 PM:

There is a ton that we dont understand about scent and tracking conditions. Guys that run Fox ,coyote,bear and cats see things that coonhunters dont just because they have the benefit of daylight, I Read an article years ago about how a dog determined which way a track went and they determined that it had to do with dogs useing two nostrils, if they plugged one nostril a good track dog would backtrack half the time. Just imagine how sensitive that nose is to be able to determine that the scent is stronger in one direction, pretty amazing.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-15-2010 12:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
There is a ton that we dont understand about scent and tracking conditions. Guys that run Fox ,coyote,bear and cats see things that coonhunters dont just because they have the benefit of daylight, I Read an article years ago about how a dog determined which way a track went and they determined that it had to do with dogs useing two nostrils, if they plugged one nostril a good track dog would backtrack half the time. Just imagine how sensitive that nose is to be able to determine that the scent is stronger in one direction, pretty amazing.

Yea they have to learn a lot more than we do out in the dark. Then you take the SAR people that are out in clubs that get donated money for about any thing they want to spend it on. There out with the latest and greatest equipment laying there own tracks documenting all the weather conditions with windometers,burometers and lap tops to keep records of every detail day to day year to year. Doing experiments one after the other.
They allso bring in the best dog trainers in the country to teach at there seminars. I think the thing that amazes me the most of all the things a dog can do is scent discrimination. I could take a scent discrimanant dog, scent it of a shirt, send it across wind down wind of a group of 100 or more people and it could tell me if who I was looking for was in that croud with in seconds. Now finding the person with in the crowd was a differant story becouse of wind currents once inside the crowd but they will 90 to the crowd as soon as they get down wind of the one they are looking for. Even with that many scents mixed in the air.
A lot of people dont think they can tell one coon from another but they can. That is why I allways send them on when they pull up short on a blank. Chances are they will hit the same coon and know it.

Posted by tx slick tree on 06-15-2010 12:22 AM:

you want to drive some dogs crazy hunt them right now with grapes on the vines. the coons feed in the vines and leave scent all over the vines the dogs will be walking on their hind feet and winding. i have seen dogs tree up in grapevines with no coon seen and have another dog pick him up where he came down and go tree the coon.

i had a dog that would tree a lay up coon but as others said he wasnt treeing on a tree he would be under the coon. same dog also had a hard time treeing on a hollow tree or den as yall call them. he would hit the tree then go off an check come back hit on the tree go off and check. he wasnt a comp dog but he was a coon dog and when he locked down on a tree it wasnt empty. the dog was very accurate.

Posted by Glenn Wells on 06-15-2010 06:18 AM:

I have no idea if you could train a dog to wind and tree layups or not, it's more a trait that just bred into them. I do know that I had a hound that was cold nosed, would open as soon a came to a track, but when wind was right he would tree all you cared to pack out, without ever opening on trail ! I have seen coons laying on limbs warming , gone home got the dog and returned 3 hours later, and the only sound heard was Reb's locate as he hit the tree ! You can learn a lot about dogs by taking them hunting in the daylight ... have seen a lot of coons from dawn to about 9am.
Something that I have done to see if a puppy might have any winding ability was to lay a dead coon up in a tree , wait a while and bring puppy out by himself, let him venture around and see if he shows any reaction when wind blows toward him . They seem to get nervous and start looking around as if a predator was near . The ones that showed a reaction later went on to tree layups and would strike driving down road , when they grew up. I would do this before they had ever seen a hide or coon, and always in a place where they could not see anything .

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