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-- Been cheated... really??? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=347536)

quote:

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Originally posted by evan ashley
this is a team sport you and your dog versus me and my dog.

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my dogs stay to them self all the time 90% or higher they will show you the meat people around here will see your coon if its there but 1 key difference i do not hunt ukc any more it has been 19 months since i hunted a ukc hunt i hunt where the real sportsman are where everyone wants to win but have all won before

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Jason Harper

Treberta,
There is always going to be some cheating involved with comp. Even in baseball some people will find a a way to cheat. I think what Dave was saying is that it is not as wide spread as a lot of people say it is. I also think it depends on what part of the country you live in, some places are worse than other places. Where I live we have a lot of great people to hunt with and most comp hunts are fun and relaxed. Although we know there are some who will try and pull a fast one and do anything they can to win. The main thing is if you just have one of those guys you can keep them honest. When you get a couple at one time well that maybe a different story. I have been comp hunting for about 15 years and can only remember getting cheated a few times, but yes it does happen occasionally.

The best hunts you will attend, are the bigger hunts where usually you don't know any of the other three cast members.

Alot of the problem in these small hunts and clubs is jealousy. Some people just can't stand it when they see someone they don't like win and many will do everything they can to make sure it doesn't happen.

I am also not saying that every hunt I go to cheating goes on. Don't take my posts that way please, but if you think it happens once in a blue moon you are a very mistaken individual.

Thanks JDC!

Yes, my point wasn't that cheating doesn't exist or that a cheater is a mythical creature! It seems that many of the posts on here are trying to prove that some form of cheating does exist, but don't worry, I've already conceded that fact.

The point I was trying to make is that much of what is called "cheating" is often times just an excuse for getting beat or simply someone's perception, because they just didn't know the rules.

The other point I was trying to make was allowing yourself to be cheated. Again, by either not knowing the rules well enough to recognize someone bending them or not disputing the cheat. There's countless posts on this thread with people making claims of being cheated, and maybe they're all true, but not one of you mentioned placing a "?" or heck a series of ?s on the scorecard and taking it back to a MOH or panel.

If you were being cheated, you knew it, and didn't like it why didn't you challenge it and do your part to prevent it from happening again??? Even when the majority of the cast is out to get you, you still have the right to question every ruling.

I think some of you are missing the point, and once again spreading the misconception that we're all cheaters and liars!

Why the emphasis on one not knowing the rules is a problem far greater than the one trying to bend them or outright cheat? This is the mentality that is akin to those benders and cheaters. "Hey its your fault for not knowing the rules, thats why I can bend them!" BS!

I also like the ? on the card..... "You could have questioned it, you didn't, not my fault you let me screw you by bending the rules!" BS!

I don't think anyone goes to a hunt expecting to be screwed or waiting to get the cheater. We go to them with honesty and we choose to believe in the honesty of those we share a lifestyle with. Maybe we accept the fact that in the field we don't know the rules as good as all the "pros" do. So instead of questioning it, we take it for granted that a guy is being straight so we figure a lesson/rule learned. Only to get back and find out that wasn't the case. I find it hard to accept total blame for these scenarios. Just because you get an idea that you are the one on the cast that may know the rules better than everyone, to the point of being able to "bend" them (whatever the helll that means), doesn't exemplify you from culpability. Have a little freakin' integrity and take it upon yourself to mentor us slow idiots instead of taking pride in a win that you know was tainted.

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“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatsoever that it is not utterly absurd.”

I have never been on a cast where trees were plussed without seeing a coon, never.....No doubt in my mind it happens, and will continue to happen but IMO its the rare exception.

I have on more than one occasion drawn a guy that will insist a dark spot in the tree or a bunch of leaves is a coon, and throws a fit when the rest of the cast wont plus it..... Im sure these guys are still complaining about being cheated today.

quote:

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Originally posted by josh


I have on more than one occasion drawn a guy that will insist a dark spot in the tree or a bunch of leaves is a coon, and throws a fit when the rest of the cast wont plus it..... Im sure these guys are still complaining about being cheated today.

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“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatsoever that it is not utterly absurd.”

quote:

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Originally posted by josh
I have never been on a cast where trees were plussed without seeing a coon, never.....No doubt in my mind it happens, and will continue to happen but IMO its the rare exception.

I have on more than one occasion drawn a guy that will insist a dark spot in the tree or a bunch of leaves is a coon, and throws a fit when the rest of the cast wont plus it..... Im sure these guys are still complaining about being cheated today.

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Csnowgren - great to have the opportunity to "talk" to you again. Since you were one of the folks that immediately jumped to the conclusion that I had cheated a young man, a couple months back as opposed to assuming there was room for misunderstanding. You and others didn't request more details or facts, you simply condemned me as a cheater! That's what this post is all about... creating and furthering misconceptions that we're all cheaters and everyone that isn't is being cheated!

Treberta - Here's your answer... go back to the clubhouse! Everyone has the right to question or dispute a ruling, and it's difficult for a judge or cast to deny that another hunter had a question if you're standing in front of the MOH or Hunt Director! If they refuse to go, the MOH or HD should scratch them for refusing to return to address a question. Which is exactly what they deserve.

Both of you... I'm not justifying bending the rules or letting someone else do so. But if nobody in the cast understands the rules, who knows if they're being properly applied. Anyone and everyone could be unknowingly "cheating" someone out of a fair win.

At the same time, countless hours in the woods are spent attempting to explain rulings and decisions, simply because someone didn't have a clue. And often times, that person get's frustrated with everyone else and walks away feeling cheated, when in reality he/she cheated the rest of the cast out on an enjoyable hunt, by their ignorance.

Seems like a lot of people are trying to make themselves a martyr...

People will see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe.

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“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatsoever that it is not utterly absurd.”

This is a very interesting thread and I think everyone has some pretty good points, it really gets me thinking about past hunts. I have witnessed some crap being pulled or trying to be pulled in the hunts but for the most part it has always been pretty legit. We all know the guys that are labeled as shady characters, usually they are the guys that are the loudest people in the clubhouse before the hunt, they do the most bragging, have seen more, done more, won more, etc. etc. than anyone else. You will see these guys whispering in the judges ear of all the other casts telling him what to look and listen for. Guys like this are morons and very seldom do you see them in the winners circle, but more often than not they are wandering around after the hunt talking about how they got screwed! Know the rules!!!!!! I will say again, KNOW THE RULES! Hunt a dog with brains! And when the MOH asks you to be a judge say YES! So many people are asked to judge and refuse but turn around and say they were screwed by poor judging, bad mouth yourself! Like I said earlier, I think for the most part that everything is pretty honest and a lotta fun, take the bitter taste of defeat and sweeten it with the sweet taste of victory!

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france

HARPER ENGLISH

On the first page , your last thread !

To me this is CHEATING !
Sounds like you are proud of it too.
Rules bending/Dishonest /Cheating ...ALL THE SAME

UKC WHAT DO YOU THINK IT IS ?



Sincerely,
CHARLES PULLEN

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GrNitech Rapidan River Ragin Rambo

Treberta,
You make the most sense, you sound like someone who is good
to draw out with. Sounds like a lot RAT TRAPS NEEDS TO BE SET .


CHARLES PULLEN

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GrNitech Rapidan River Ragin Rambo

cheaters and liars

quote:

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Originally posted by treberta
I have another side of the story.

I got into this sport in my teens and was packing a very good dog.

I went to some hunts and had a greta time and drew out with many good people. Now life is not all a box of rosses. I went through a very bad stretch where every cast (UKC) I was on had problems. Mostly others gaining up on me so on so on.

I was sick to death of hearing well it's because you don't know the rules from people that had no clue as to what I know. I knew the rules very well back then, some were a little grey and what not but I knew them. When I seen outright cheating against me or another cast member I spoke out against it and got a bad reputation because of it.

You get labeled a cry baby, and a sore looser. I could care less what you think of me, don't judge me! judge my dog.

If only people did that, the hunts would be much more pleasurable.

For the past 5 years I can tell you every crooks name that I have drawn, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. I can tell you exactly what they did to boot.

I do think alot of it (getting cheated) has to do with lack of experience and lack of knowledge in the hunts but this is not always the case.

I am a smart mouthed person and when I see nonsense going on during a hunt I speak up. You may cheat me and you just may get a win out of it but you better bet the whole coonhunting world will know about it.

I have been very fortunate over the past 10 or so hunts to not have a single problem other then a couple semi-rough dogs and what not. These hunts win or loose are very fun if you draw a good group of guys.

I have siad this before and I firmly believe it. THE ONLY WAY TO GET RID OF THE CROOKS IS TO MAKE THEM KNOWN.

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Liie I said i'm not all about downgrading the hunts. I love going to them and I am a great supporter of UKC. It's not there fault there's idiots and crooks in the hunts BUT it is there fault when they get several complaints about someone and just kick them to the curb.

Some say I am very bad to draw out with, take a wild guess as to who says that.

Others say i'm great to draw out with, take a guess as to who says that.

The crooks hate drawing me and the honest guys love drawing me. That's the way I want to be looked at until the day I die.

Who needs a crook/cheat to like them anyway? Not I.

quote:

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Originally posted by treberta
If I truly wanted too and I had PATHETIC MORALS AND CHARACTER I could cheat in nearly every cast I was in.

Careful hypocrits! The ones screaming NO CHEATING GOES ON are the very people to watch out for.

My guess is, if you have never been cheated, you haven't hunted enough or aren't smart enough to figure it out.

Also, and lets be honest here, UKC has a more packing style of dog and if youre dog is ALONE all the time you are more apt to run into problems, which is what is the norm for me.

Lets just think about this for a moment; Four dog cast and the other 3 dogs are treeing together most of the time and my dog is split treed all night. So with that knowledge they have three eyes that are more then likely going to invent a coon if they have too and I will have to show them a WHOLE coon and most likely hollar don't you see it starring down? Don't you see it starring down? Two eyes looking right at me!!!!!!!!! Don't you see it?!!!! NO I DON'T SEE WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT. Do you know how pathetic that is for someone to knowingly see a coon and refuse to score it?

My how funny it is to hear some of you say "I have seen some unsportsmanlike things go on BUT never cheating". If someone its pulling tricks and bending rules IT'S CHEATING. Anytime a dis-honest thing goes on IT'S CHEATING. Cover it up, put other fancy words on it, but it has one real name CHEATING.

This lesson is almost over so stay tuned and stay with me. I also love hearing how i'm turning people away from the hunts speaking out against the riff raff that goes on at some of these events. If you honestly think that then youre part of the problem as well.

Hey Freddy! Last week was youre turn, this week it's mine.

Two weeks ago I guided a Nite Ch cast and the fellas female in my cast only needed 1 more win to finish her out. There were two casts of Nite Ch. She did a great job in my cast and treed 4 coon all to herself.

He made it back into the club an hour and a half before deadline with a score of 800+. The other cast came back in after him. The funny thing is, one of the fellas in the other cast made those famous words to me 3 years ago. You help me tonight I will help you next time. Guess what people? The other cast came back with 875+, imagine that.

Also the dog came back in with 875+ scored 150 or 200+ the night before.

Want proof that it was rigged? I can give cold hard facts but where would that get me.

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i want to know how you would consider me using a rule to my advantage as long as the rule is not broken cheating and if you are referring to me not shining your tree nothing says i have to shine each member must vote on scoring of the tree i shine long enuff to see if its a circle or minus tree in my opinion finding the coon is up to you and as fas as ukc goes i could care less probly never hunt another hunt im PKC all the way

__________________
Jason Harper

quote:

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Originally posted by harper english
im not claimin to be a great sportsman i wont cheat you but if i can use rules in my advantage i will if my dog is not on your tree i will shine your tree for 1 minute to make my opinion on the scoring of the tree it is your responsibility to find your dogs coon not mine if you find it i will see it i like to win i enjoy competing at high levels if i wanted to just have fun i would have went pleasure hunting

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Chesapeake, Virginia

no sir i will be listenin for my dog so i will be ready to make my next move when you pull off ur tree i take full advantage of the 9 minutes you get used to that when you have a loner that gets deep

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Jason Harper

1ST

I AGREE ABOUT THE FIRST PLACE DEAL. IVE SEEN SOME FIRST PLACE WINS WITH AS LOW AS 25 PLUS. U SCORE 300 AND GET A SECOND ANOTHER WEEKEND! IM CHASING A 1ST GOT PLENTY OF 2NDS AND 3RDS. WHICH IS RACKING UP ON A FEW PERFORMANCE PTS FOR ME. LOL ITS HARD TO FIND A FAIR WAY TO DO IT I GUESS.

I won't talk about cheating on casts, I will talk about cheating clubs. Some clubs rig the draw out, some clubs allow hunters fill out scorecards sitting in the truck, some clubs already have the winner picked out in the coffee shop the day before. These same clubs do not hold meetings or elections as their UKC Charter requires, appently, the cheats run the club for life.

And, whether any of you believe it or not, I have been offered titles put on my dogs in other states. I didn't have to send my dog, just the paper work.

The last Nite Hunt cast I was on, 3 cheats voted on cirling a tree slick as a telephone pole. 2 "verteran handlers" were teaching a young hunter on his first cast how it was done. I was the judge. Instead of arguing, I just signed off on the scorecard, handed it to one of the cast members, and left. I have never went on a hound Nite Hunt cast again and don't reckon I ever will.

I have seen the same kind of stuff on beagle casts. I won 7 out of the last beagle casts I was on, I have a dominant beagle, but there was so much blatent cheating going on other casts, I refuse to be part of it. I am talking about guys sitting in the truck filling out score cards. I won fair and square. Instead of being the judge like I could have been, I chose to carry my camcorder, so I have proof how my dog won. I don't believe some UKC officials care about how some folks win as long as the fees are sent in.

Not all clubs or casts are cheats. I have been on some great casts with some great sportsmen. I am a member od 7-8 local coon clubs and as far as I know, everything is done by the book. But, some of the blatent cheating that does go on has soured my outlook on the whole process and I am not going to be part of it. You guys can compete all you want to but I want to see your dog in the brush or in the woods before I buy it. I won't take your titles as proof of anything. Nuff said.

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Dave Haugh

LAKELAND KENNELS
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English Coonhounds
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Gr Ch Lakeland's Phoebe
PKC Sq Ch Lakeland's Mini Mouse
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Mt Curs
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Ch SqCh Lakeland's Lucy
SqCh Lakeland's Goldie
SqCh Lakeland's Kate
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Beagles
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Dual GrCh Blank's Midnight
GrCh HBCh Lakeland's Cricket II

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quote:

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Originally posted by harper english
i want to know how you would consider me using a rule to my advantage as long as the rule is not broken cheating and if you are referring to me not shining your tree nothing says i have to shine each member must vote on scoring of the tree i shine long enuff to see if its a circle or minus tree in my opinion finding the coon is up to you and as fas as ukc goes i could care less probly never hunt another hunt im PKC all the way

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i stay on the prohound as well bud just not as many of these kind of posts to get people riled up on most people who draw me say they enjoy hunting with me i have been told several times by well respected men all over the country that i am 1 of the most honest and fair judges they have drawn i just like to take every oppertunity to listen for my dog cause anyone who has hunted wit him knows he can sink in the country quick

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Jason Harper

Unfortunately the cheating quotient goes up as the value of returns goes up. It is the ugly side of human nature that those type people have. As the reward rises the risk they are willing to put forth also rises. You have those people in every sport there is. Someone wanting something for nothing. The same people that will cheat you are the ones that will grossly misrepresent a dog for sale. And yes they are out there. BUT!!!!!!!!!!!

I dont think there are that many. Remember that there are four men on the cast but it only takes one to ruin the fun for everyone. That is 25%!! If there are four casts and all are good people on the other three casts that is only 6%. That is probably a closer number to reality.

Funny thing with those type people is that if that one bad apple manages to cheat and the other three let him, then grumble about it it just makes matters worse. But if they call him on it he will swear after the fact that they cheated him.

I too think the cheaters should be called out. BUT!!!!!!!! I lot of damage could be done by jumping to conclusions and calling someone a cheat only to find that they werent after all. No one will remember that you apologized a day later just that you accused someone of cheating.

Dangerous game. I guess you cant shoot someone for calling you a cheat anymore huh!

psiskjr