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-- Dog Trailin Out Of Hearing (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=345990)

first tree was scored slick minus the dog that was probly why mine was not there but no matter she went the top and over when we got there being the top we applied the 8 in 2 min mine barked 2 dogs were recast and struck and treed in less than 6min now that it has become more of what you wanted to do than a rule if you start the 8 on me then we start walkin and i can make it to the top in 8min but you cant what good did it do to start the 8 i gonna get minused cause you could not make it up there in 8min i know a 19yr old young man that can pull it out in that length of time but you really wouldnt want to try to keep up with him doin it lol its just the brakes sometimes when you hunt around here is the way i have always looked at it..i wouldnt want to call time on yours just cause it trailed across the top for you to come back and tell me it had a coon and you would have won if i would have just walked up there you know what i am saying i'll try to do what benfits the cast not an individual is that not what we should do?

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Originally posted by Rip
Nope, nobody writes special rules for anybody. I follow the rules 100% to a tee and if I don't it's just a mistake. The difference in me and some others is I score every situation the same, regardless of what it does/doesn't do to my dog. I will find your coon even if it beats me, and show it to you.

Are you gonna tell me that when you turn loose and your dog goes up the ridge a quarter tops out and goes over the other side you start the 8 and minus him?

I didn't think so.

If you do though come and draw out with me, I want to see you minus your dog every time it goes over a ridge. (these ridges are big enough you ain't gonna get to where you can hear within 8 minutes).

It is you that is wanting special rules. You are wanting to do whatever benifits your dog and whatever you can to minus every other dog in the cast without following the rules.

There is a reason Todd said driving around is not prohibited. Yes, whether you guys know it or not you are allowed to drive around natural obstacles.

What I am talking about doesn't break any rule. Part of hunting is keeping up with the dogs and trying to keep them in hearing. Part of hunting in the mountains is that if they go over the ridge it may be 10-15 minutes before you can get up high enough to hear them. Todd has plainly said that you can drive around in that instance and NOT put the 8 on them if it's gonna take an unreasonable amount of time to get over the ridge. My take on that was if it took more than 15 minutes you could call time out and drive around, same as when you can call time out between trees, but yes it is permitted. If that's permitted then it is permitted to walk to the top of the ridge BEFORE you start the 8 if you know the dog went over that ridge and you can't hear it from where you stand.

UKC has always held that you use common sense when running times (don't start the 2 when you go down in a hollar or while the train is coming by and you don't start the 8 when the cast knows the dogs went over a ridge and can't be heard from where you stand). The 8 is to minus a dog for losing a track, not to minus a dog for going over a ridge that may be treed 30 yards down the other side.

It's not special for me, it's special for TERRAIN. It is completely and totally unreasonable to minus a dog every time one goes over a ridge.

You have to be in position to score a dog before you can score it. You need to make every reasonable effort to be in position at all times, but sometimes you can't and you have to get into position before you put times on a dog.

But every situation is different, that's why UKC has recognized it and allows a cast to agree to go to the top of the ridge, the last place you heard the dog, or call time out and drive around etc to keep from scoring a dog when you are not in position to score.

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I have never comp hunted in big mountains but I can't imagine walking more than 8 minutes without hearing a dog bark and not even starting the 8 clock yet. I don't care if they did go over the mountain. The 8 starts when you stop hearing dogs. It sounds like in the mountains, the 8 starts when start hearing the dogs. or maybe it's just when you get to the top of the mountain.
Whatever.......I'm very sure I will never have a need to figure this one out.

Won't it be a great day when GPS units have a bark sensor and tree switch that injects a mark on the trail? Then you can just wait till you get back to the clubhouse and run the cast through the compter and let it do the scoring according to the official rules.

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Originally posted by JiM
I have never comp hunted in big mountains but I can't imagine walking more than 8 minutes without hearing a dog bark and not even starting the 8 clock yet. I don't care if they did go over the mountain. The 8 starts when you stop hearing dogs. It sounds like in the mountains, the 8 starts when start hearing the dogs. or maybe it's just when you get to the top of the mountain.
Whatever.......I'm very sure I will never have a need to figure this one out.

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Jim, obviously I am not talking about when you don't know where dogs are at or when a track breaks down. If you don't know where they are you gotta start the 8 when you get to the last place you heard them and if your dog was over a ridge, well them's the breaks.

What I am talking about is the cast KNOWS they went over a ridge and that's why you are not hearing the dogs.

If you started the 8 every time a dog went over a ridge you would minus every dog in the cast on almost every drop around here. You can't get to the top of these dang things in less than 8 minutes. I literally can't count the number of times I have had the whole cast burn one up and over the ridge and tree just on the other side and you can't hear a peep for 10 or 15 minutes till you get high enough to hear them. (That's when it pays to have a big mouthed dog, cause you will be able to hear yours sooner if you are walking up a ridge like that). Around here part of huntin is keepin up with the dogs. We have all been on both ends of the stick, sometimes it was mine that was leash locked, sometimes it was mine causin folks to be leash locked, but it's part of the hunt whether you are competition or pleasure huntin.

Running the 8 in that situation is no different than running the 8 while a train is going by the cast and you can't hear the dogs for the train. You KNOW why you can't hear the dogs, and it's not because they lost the track, it's because you are out of position to score the dogs. Just look at this example, they got to the top and could hear the dogs. The dogs hadn't lost the track, they were just over the ridge. When they got to the top the time was started and they released the other dogs. They then treed that coon. To have minused those two dogs because their coon went over a ridge would not be right as it was not the dogs fault you couldn't hear them. It was your fault you couldn't hear them cause you were out of position.

In that case, you get yourself in position to score them.

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Why do you need to leash a dog? We have always hunted in the direction that the dogs went out of hearing until we got to where we could reasonably expect to be able to hear the ones that went out. I don't see any difference in walking the way a dog went out with a dog that didn't go as part of the cast or pulling him off a scored tree and turning loose again. No dogs have been declared treed and a handler should be able to turn loose and tree a coon that the other dogs trailed past on their way out. If the majority of the cast agrees a handler may keep a dog leashed until we get to the top so we can hear and he can turn loose to dogs that are trailing or keep him leashed if they are treed. But if he wants to turn loose he has the option. Since you don't know what the other dogs are doing you can't make him keep his dog leashed with hunt time running.

Mtn Hunter.....when dogs are struck and trailing, the rules do not allow recasting to those dogs until the 8 is broke. There is no option in that instance.
Even if the option is in effect (dogs treed and dogs trailing) you still can't recast until the 8 is broke. Of course when a dog is treed, the 8 is usually being broken constantly by the dog that is treeing.

Where does it say a dog can't be recast? If time is in and all dogs have not been declared treed then a dog must be off the leash and hunting.

i sure dont have a problem with you turnin your dog loose before we get to the top but your not suppose to turn back loose until you hear the dog that went up and over or i guess you could have ran the 8 minused the dog that went over and continued to the top but you still have to go to the top to try and hear the dog rite or would you just sand bag the cast and say you dont want to go to the top because that dog had no business goin over ? we are not the only ones that have to deal with this i know and until you hunt it you could never understand it but i would rather hunt it as to wade swamps all night lol not tryin to argue just thoughts remember its for the better of the cast not any one person if we had a really old cast member it could have takin longer or it may have been his dog that went over would you want someone not to help an older person try to hear or get there dog ?

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If you can't hear the dog/ dogs trailing from where you struck them then thats a bad break and I have never seen anyone walk 15-20 minutes to hear a dog trailing before the 8 is applied. Sorry bad break put the 8 on them if it gets them minus them and put the hour on them. That is in the advisor. It doesn't say walk till you think you will be able to hear them, it states walk to where you last heard dog or dogs on trail and start the 8.

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No Kenny, it is not in the advisor to blatantly disregard common sense and score dogs when you are out of position to score them.

It has always been UKC's contention that you score dogs PROPERLY, not CONVIENTLY.

Would you start the 8 when a train was goin by the cast where you couldn't hear the dogs?

How bout when a plane was taking off and was drowning out everything?

Todd has said before it was not right to walk a cast into a hollow where you can't hear the dogs treed and put the time on them. If that's the case I can minus anyone I want to because in the places I hunt I know routes to the dogs that would put us out of their hearing for over 2 minutes, and we could walk real hard toward them and still minus them cause the 2 got them. You know that ain't right. And yes, around here ANY guide could do that several times on a cast if they wanted to and just ring people up with undeserved minus just by being an ***

This is no different. You KNOW the dogs went over the ridge, and you KNOW the only way to hear them is to go over the ridge.

If you don't know where they are at (in other words if you don't know that there is something out of the dogs control causing you not to hear them like a barrier, mechanical contraption etc) then you would put the 8 on them.

If you did it like you talked about then every dog on the cast would be minused on the majority of the turnouts cause they go over ridges alot around here, and you just have to go to the top of it and listen.

I can see it now, everybody tryin to strike for 25 so they will take less minus on each track huntin in the mountains LOL.

Let me also add that I know YOU wouldn't score things just to benifit your dog. I know how you score things and you are straight up as they come. I'm not saying that at all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jculler8
I don't think it's so much as "top of the mountain" start the 8, but in this case common sense amonst the cast must be used and get a to the "best" place to atleast get an earshot of a hound.

As someone else was stating about people "dragging their feet", well that shouldn't happen, being that they should WANT to hear hounds to be able to recast.

From my own experiences in this situation, the cast "hustles" to the nearest point where the hounds could be heard that is in reason and start the 8. That means sometimes you are in for somewhat of a walk depending on how long it took to score trees while dogs are trailing over the hills. Common sense plays a big part in having this type of situation scored correctly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kenny Eads
If you can't hear the dog/ dogs trailing from where you struck them then thats a bad break and I have never seen anyone walk 15-20 minutes to hear a dog trailing before the 8 is applied. Sorry bad break put the 8 on them if it gets them minus them and put the hour on them. That is in the advisor. It doesn't say walk till you think you will be able to hear them, it states walk to where you last heard dog or dogs on trail and start the 8.

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Well if you have to walk to be able to hear the dogs I would think you should atleast let the mans dog hunt that made the tree. 20 min is to long to have a dog leashed on a maybe. That could be the difference in winning and loosing as much as putting the 8 on one that went out of hearing. Time is time and points are points. We had this just happen Friday night and unfortunatly the guys dog was minused. I couldn't hear her before the 8 was up and that is all there was to it. He even had me start it on her when we got to where we heard her last. I felt bad and it cost him the cast and a ntch win. That is how it goes. Has happened to me befor also and yes it sucks but when the watch says 8 then it is over and one of the columns in the CB said start the 8 when dogs stop barking not wait and do it when you want to.

IT REALLY IS HARDER TO JUDGE DOGS FAIRLY WHEN YOU HUNT HILLS MTNS RIDGES OR WHERE THERE IS ALOT OF NOISE INTERSTATES AIRPORTS SO ON AND ON BUT WE REALLY ALL SHOULD TRY TO KEEP THE CAST TOGETHER I THINK IT SAYS THAT SOMEWHERE TOO I'VE BEEN ON BOTH ENDS OF THIS AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM KEEPIN MINE ON A LEASH TIL WE GET TO THE BEST PLACE TO JUDGE YOUR DOG OR MINE ITS NOT A DIRECT RULE VIOLATION EITHER WAY I DONT THINK DO YOU ? I KNOW THE BREAKS AND I SURE DONT WANT TO BE ONE OF THEM THAT EVERYBODY AT THE CLUB DREADS TO DRAW CAUSE I ALWAYS HAVE A ? OR HIS DOG ALWAYS GETS OUT OF POCKET I ALWAYS WANT TO TRY TO DO WHATS BEST FOR MY CAST IF ITS DRIVIN GET IN IF ITS WALKIN LETS GO AS LONG AS ITS NOT A DIRECT RULE VIOLATION I GAME

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I hunt in the mountains of WV

and when the dogs cross over we climb to the top... To the mountaineers there is no other alternative to be fair... And heck we are used to it... I have hunted in other states and I don't know how many guys has told me if they had to climb these mountains that they would quit hunting... Treat each other the way you would want to be treated and everything will be fine... If you hunt like a jerk and act like a jerk than your a jerk !!!! Anytime you want to take on mountain hunt come on... JMO

Re: I hunt in the mountains of WV

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Originally posted by cartwright
and when the dogs cross over we climb to the top... To the mountaineers there is no other alternative to be fair... And heck we are used to it... I have hunted in other states and I don't know how many guys has told me if they had to climb these mountains that they would quit hunting... Treat each other the way you would want to be treated and everything will be fine... If you hunt like a jerk and act like a jerk than your a jerk !!!! Anytime you want to take on mountain hunt come on... JMO

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quote:

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Originally posted by blueticking: it
im not walking your dog 20 min threw the woods mine didnt
have a problem treeing in hearing,go back to the spot put
time on it call time out

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you guys from the lower states, tennessee especially, come on up to pa,,,,,, let me make that a little more blunt, no offense, come on up to pennsylvania, and hunt here on these mountains, big difference guaranteed! we can hunt the lowlands, flats, cornfields and kill over 200 coon and when we turn our hounds loose in pennsylvania, in the moutain area we often find them in the next state up called new york state! we don't hunt town to town,,,,,,,,,,,,,, we hunt state to state! these are real mountain coon and will run your dog ragged! if you are not up to a 3 - 4 hour chase on 1 coon, then stay home and keep your dogs home too, cuz they don't stand a chance! i have 2 walker pups coming up from kentucky to train, i'll send them back fully trained, and world qualified! RQE guaranteed! these walkers will have been trained by my RQE redbones male and female both,,,,,,,,,,, 2 world qualifiers, male and female. guaranteed! both hounds trained hard in the pa/ny/nj/oh areas! neither hound has been beaten singular or in a team! if you can match that, then i am listening!

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What happens when you walk 15-20 minutes to the top of that hill and you still can't hear the dogs trailing? Sorry it sucks but can't walk 15-20 minutes on a maybe.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kenny Eads
What happens when you walk 15-20 minutes to the top of that hill and you still can't hear the dogs trailing? Sorry it sucks but can't walk 15-20 minutes on a maybe.

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quote:

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Originally posted by coondawg_hunter
you guys from the lower states, tennessee especially, come on up to pa,,,,,, let me make that a little more blunt, no offense, come on up to pennsylvania, and hunt here on these mountains, big difference guaranteed! we can hunt the lowlands, flats, cornfields and kill over 200 coon and when we turn our hounds loose in pennsylvania, in the moutain area we often find them in the next state up called new york state! we don't hunt town to town,,,,,,,,,,,,,, we hunt state to state! these are real mountain coon and will run your dog ragged! if you are not up to a 3 - 4 hour chase on 1 coon, then stay home and keep your dogs home too, cuz they don't stand a chance! i have 2 walker pups coming up from kentucky to train, i'll send them back fully trained, and world qualified! RQE guaranteed! these walkers will have been trained by my RQE redbones male and female both,,,,,,,,,,, 2 world qualifiers, male and female. guaranteed! both hounds trained hard in the pa/ny/nj/oh areas! neither hound has been beaten singular or in a team! if you can match that, then i am listening!

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The way I see it as long as you do the same thing every time (either walk to the top or go to were you last heard them) it stays fare. The unfare is when you do one thing one time and another thing the next.
The argument starts when you get one form a place were they do what you arent use to..............I learned last weak end that location makes a heck of a differance.
I would have to be one that would quit if I had to hunt those mountains. Not that I wouldn't love to try but just don't think I could posibly keep up OR EVEN GET UP THOSE MOUNTAINS...LOL

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Just try Hunting in the "Big Stone Gap" Area of Virginia !!! If you see the area durring the Day light "You Won't Turn Loose at Night " !!!!

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