UKC Forums - Rules Question: Treeing on closed tree

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-- Rules Question: Treeing on closed tree (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=339878)

Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-07-2010 11:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
My guess is that the "official" answer will come from whether or not 3(b) overrules 4(k). I'm guessing it does.

So JiM, what you are saying is that if someone trees in late...and you apply 4(k), or if dogs are actually split...but a dog pulls a coon out of a hollow log and it starts squallin and spittin, and the dogs leave their split tree...that we should "ignore" the fact that they left....since there was a coon on the ground.

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Posted by on 03-07-2010 11:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
delete all tree points.
plus all strike points, there is no tree involved, it was deleted.

I’m confident that this will be the official interpretation.

Posted by on 03-07-2010 11:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
why would you delete all tree points?

What would be the difference in deleting c’s tree or the other two’s. In order for them to be misused for being called treed on a closed tree they would have to be found treed on that tree. When they were handled on a caught coon all tree points were deleted no matter in what order they were called.

Posted by Smoothaction on 03-08-2010 12:02 AM:

If dogs are split treed under no circumstaces are they allowed to leave there tree and not be minused and everyone who says that there points are deleted sorry you are wrong except for the origanal dog treed and since coon was caught on groung his are deleted eveyone else except for dog not struck in when cast arrives are eligable for plus strike points.

Posted by Maniac on 03-08-2010 12:02 AM:

the rules state any time you tree when trees close. your treeing your dog for 125 i dont care if a coon is cought the dog was tree 125 declareing he was split!

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Posted by BOOBOOBRADY on 03-08-2010 12:21 AM:

The way I score things like that If I can't plus it i can't minus it, i might be wrong but that has been the way i have always scored things like this

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Posted by elvis on 03-08-2010 12:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
the rules state any time you tree when trees close. your treeing your dog for 125 i dont care if a coon is cought the dog was tree 125 declareing he was split!

there is no tree to be split from.
as soon as that tree is deleted it takes the other off the hook.

unless there was a determination made that a dog/s moved from where they were treed, delete all tree points, plus the strikes and go on.

Posted by buck brush on 03-08-2010 12:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
there is no tree to be split from.
as soon as that tree is deleted it takes the other off the hook.

unless there was a determination made that a dog/s moved from where they were treed, delete all tree points, plus the strikes and go on.

I agree with you Elvis
this is one of the tuff breaks of coon huntting.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 03-08-2010 03:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by blueticking: it
4d If dog declared treed, after 5 minutes has elapsed no additional dog can be declared treed at that particular tree but if they come in to tree will get minus on track and nothing on tree if coon is seen.

pretty simple if the judge card it 125 as a1st the dog that moved
is minused,75 as 2nd its deleted

Posted by JustinM on 03-08-2010 03:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
delete all tree points.
plus all strike points, there is no tree involved, it was deleted.

this is how I would do it. kinda want to hear the offical ruling

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Posted by longshot on 03-08-2010 03:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
there is no tree to be split from.
as soon as that tree is deleted it takes the other off the hook.

unless there was a determination made that a dog/s moved from where they were treed, delete all tree points, plus the strikes and go on.

Elvis you may be right on this one , but I assumed they were treed noticeably split. If that is the case , then they moved and deserve minus for moving , reguardless of what happened on the closed tree. Most guys won't declare treed on an obvious closed tree.

I still think most judges will end up minusing the declared splits and plus all the strike points.

BUT , as I said in the beginning , this is a tough one to sort out. Just when I think I've seen it all , something like this comes along.

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Posted by Cornbelt on 03-08-2010 03:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
there is no tree to be split from.
as soon as that tree is deleted it takes the other off the hook.

unless there was a determination made that a dog/s moved from where they were treed, delete all tree points, plus the strikes and go on.

Elvis I think the second part of your statement is why they would be minused. The determination that they moved would be based on the fact that the handlers chose to split tree their dogs. The handlers gambled and said the dogs are split so they could get them on the card. Now by making that call they are responsible for a separate set of tree points.

I'm interested to see what Allen has to say about this one. Like Jim said a good argument could be made from either side. The language in 4.(k) that may save the split dogs from being minused states "If dog is on closed tree when judge arrives, tree points minused". Well with no tree maybe that saves them. Maybe that makes them exempt from having to account for a seperate set of tree points. Good discussion either way.

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Posted by Rip on 03-08-2010 10:33 AM:

I tell you what, the first dog better hope it ain't a 3 dog cast or they will say HIS dog moved and vote that way.

Seen that one try to be pulled a time or two, good judge won't let it happen but I have seen plenty of handlers try and do that, especially if they had one of those treedogs that was very loud and noticable. I just always told them before I put them on the paper when they started hollerin "split tree my dog" that if they are together then THEIR dog will get minused automatically because, they don't think it's such a good idea then

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Posted by Cornbelt on 03-08-2010 02:25 PM:

BTT

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Posted by treberta on 03-08-2010 03:00 PM:

What I don't understand is why on the closed tree were the other 2 dogs declared treed?

They must have been in-experienced handlers because there was clearly no gain by them treeing along with dog c. If they were there and it was an actual tree there 125- on top of there strike for coon seen in the hole.

Sounds like quite the oreal.

All plus strike and all tree points deleted.

Posted by jawscardodger on 03-08-2010 03:27 PM:

Minus tree for moving, plus strike

Posted by Allen / UKC on 03-08-2010 06:39 PM:

Rule 4(k) states that any dog(s) that are declared treed after a tree has been closed will be considered "split" and recorded on scorecard as such. With this new rule implimented for 2009/2010; those dogs will be minused for leaving their "split" position even in the case where they might not have obviously left.

Prior to the new rule of 4(k), judges simply would not accept a tree call after a tree had been closed unless it was obvious to the judge that the dog(s) was in fact split. The theory was that you should not minus a dog for something they didn;'t do such as leaving from a split when it wasn't obvious that that's what happened. Not true anymore.

Now 4(k) minuses those dogs for leaving regardless of whether they actually did or not. It leaves it in the hands of the handlers to choose whether or not to declare a dog treed after a tree has been closed. Not a good idea to do so unless it is "obvious". Because if they choose to declare a dog treed after a tree has been closed then they will be subject to being minused for "leaving" should they be anywhere other than separate from those that were declared treed on the closed tree.

The only time a dog is considered "shut out" on strike is when it it is on a tree and eligible for tree points. In the case where dogs have a coon caught there is no "tree". Any dogs declared treed result in deleting those tree points. So, any dogs that are a participant in the case of a coon caught, even though "shut out", when the judge arrives will recieve plus strike points.

In Joe's scenario; Dog D recieves minus 125 and Dog B recieves minus 75 tree points for leaving their "called split" position. All dogs declared struck and "at the scene" of the coon caught when the judge arrives recieve their strike points plus.

Posted by elvis on 03-08-2010 08:02 PM:

The only thing that leaves me scratching my head is that there is no tree to be split from.
I dont agree with it but I can abide by it.
thanks Allen

Posted by John D on 03-08-2010 08:16 PM:

I'm not sure I can my brain wrapped around this.

Iguess if they were treed with the other dogs after the tree is closed and were there they would get minused.

If they were split and then ended up with the other dogs crunching a coon then they probably need minused, too.

I guess the moral of the story is don't call your dog treed after a tree is closed unless you will be able to tell the split position of the dogs at all times going in to the tree. If you can't do that, then better lay off...

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Posted by elvis on 03-08-2010 08:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John D
I'm not sure I can my brain wrapped around this.

Iguess if they were treed with the other dogs after the tree is closed and were there they would get minused.

If they were split and then ended up with the other dogs crunching a coon then they probably need minused, too.

I guess the moral of the story is don't call your dog treed after a tree is closed unless you will be able to tell the split position of the dogs at all times going in to the tree. If you can't do that, then better lay off...

the only time i could see it comming into play would be at the end of hunt time, any other time it would just be a terrible call.

Posted by longshot on 03-08-2010 08:23 PM:

Thanks for the rule clarification Allen.

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Posted by jackbob42 on 03-08-2010 08:50 PM:

Only makes sense to score things as they happen...........

First , the "split" dogs must have left their tree to get there , minus them.
Then go ahead and score the caught coon.

Alot easier than lumping it all together.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-08-2010 09:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
Only makes sense to score things as they happen...........

First , the "split" dogs must have left their tree to get there , minus them.
Then go ahead and score the caught coon.

Alot easier than lumping it all together.

This has been a really good thread and it all comes down to this small post. lol

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 03-08-2010 09:24 PM:

Pretty much Jackbob really brings it into perspective with very few words.

Posted by blueticker on 03-08-2010 09:45 PM:

Don't split tree your hound after the five until in position to determine movement. I believe this new rule has good merit.

I was on a cast last year where I knew the hounds were split but didn't tree my dog split. I couldn't get the judge to agee they were split. We were 50 to 75 yards from the tree. It cost me a first place win. The judge wasn't sure his would hold the pressure. Sure enough his hound moved 20 ft to the right. There was mud all over the base of the small slick tree where his dog was treed. We looked at the coon. I promise you the dog treed first is the one that gets all the credit most of the time. If the hound treed first is whipping butt and the buddy system kicks in you may be in trouble.

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