UKC Forums - why breed junk

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Posted by MRC on 02-23-2010 05:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ki4qpu

I making one third off this litter than you are off each pop of sid. And I know both dogs very well. This wasn't about sid, it's about knowing what your breeding too before jimmy joe starts selling pups out your stock. I guess the truth stings sometimes.

Funny how people think they know the truth. LOL It's funny how you're ignoring the fact that Sid's stud fee was free last year... After seeing what they had to put up with as far as folks standing them up and not living up to their side of the deal, I wouldn't run a dog at stud for $1000 a pop.

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Posted by MRC on 02-23-2010 06:03 PM:

The biggest question that we're missing here is this:

Why is it the breeder's fault? Why didn't you do your homework before buying the puppy? You are just as guilty as the breeder if you buy from an unknown sire and dam as the breeder is for making the cross...

If he has a litter of pups that he can't sell, he won't be as quick to make that cross again...

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-23-2010 06:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Style
when people have a litter of 8 pups for sale, advertised at $400 and claim they are not making a dime, I cant help but chuckle...

Stud fee $400 (if using outside stud)
puppy shots, 2 per pup, $128 (some only give 1 shot)
puppy food $100 (2 50# bags max @ $25)
registration in all registries $150 ?

$778 spent on litter max.
$3200 minus $728 = $2472 profit

if their own stud is used and only 1 set of shots
$264 spent = $2936 profit

Or....

Use my own stud.. I feed him, I trained him, I campaigned him....and I pay him up in "programs" to the tune of several hundred dollars each year. Use my own female...I feed her, I trained her, I campaigned her....and I raise a litter off her ever couple of years. There is a "cost of ownership" factor that you are not taking into account. As a breeder, I keep more breeding age dogs than I can hunt, and I'm usually hunting a young dog anyway. Why keep them if I'm not going to breed them? Not any different than a cattle farmer keeping a bull, and a herd of cows...there is "cost of ownership".

Okay..next...Shots.

My current vaccination schedule is a straight Parvo shot at 5 weeks old. I get these in a 10 dose bottle for $35.00 plus shipping, so round it up to $40.00....that right there is $4.00 a shot. At 6, 8, 10, and 12 weeks...my pups get a 5 way vaccine. I buy these in a 25 dose pack, $71.29, shipping another $20.00 (next day air). That makes it just over $3.65 a dose, times 4, for a grand total of $14.60, plus the $4.00 for Parvo....I've got $18.60 in vaccine for each pup.

Next, wormer. I start worming my pups at 2 weeks old. I start them on Nemex...$59.99 for 16 ounces. Pups are wormed at 2,3,4,5,6 weeks with Nemex. Average litter uses a whole bottle, then I switch to Panacur at 8, 10, and 12 weeks. Safeguard goat wormer is $25.00 a bottle for 150CC, and this will do an average litter for 3 doses. I have $84.99 in worming the litter. Using your average litter of 8, that is $10.62 per pup in worming.

So now...I have about $30.00 in worming and vaccine in each pup....time to register them.

UKC litter registration :$20.00
UKC Performance Nomination : $25.00

Another $45.00 total. Or $5.62 per pup. Total per pup so far.....$35.62

AKC Registration: $25.00 Processing fee, plus $2.00 Per pup
AKC "program" $25.00

Total: $66.00

PKC Registration: $7.00 + $3.00 per pup

Total: $31.00, or $3.87 per pup.
(This does not include PKC SS registrations)

When I raise a litter of pups, there are some expenses for the female. She gets a good worming before she is bred, two, four, and six weeks after she is bred with the same Panacur. That means another $25.00. I feed the female puppy chow, and give her Nutri-tabs every day from the time she is bred ($24.99 for Vitamins, and $104.97 for gestational puppy chow.)

Total for Momma: $154.96
Add in the Brucellosis test: $45.00 and we are up to $199.96

Stud Fee: $400.00.

I now have $996.72 invested in this litter of 8 pups and I've not fed them a kernel of feed. I don't sell pups before they are at the VERY YOUNGEST 8 weeks old, and prefer to keep them until they are 12 weeks old. I feed Purina Puppy chow, at a minimum, and at $34.00 a bag, I'll use five bags total from the time they are ready to eat, until 8 pups are delivered to new owners. Rougly another $170.00.

If they are all healthy, don't need a trip to the vet and we don't count the other expenses involved as "incidental"...I have $1165.72 invested in this litter of pups, or $145.71 per pup.

Now...I don't sell very many pups out of a litter of 8 pups for $400.00, more along the lines of $250 to $300.

Are you telling me that I'm not entitled to make a profit on pups after I have all of the time and expense invested. Sure you can raise pups "on the cheap"....but as has been shown here, you can raise a litter of unregisterable pups, give them one shot, one worming, and charge $100.00 for em....Give me a break.

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Posted by Travis Sawney on 02-23-2010 06:14 PM:

I'd like to find me one of those natural pups of yester year..

Posted by rance56 on 02-23-2010 06:15 PM:

thank you Joe.

if its about the money i certainly could find other means to make alot more money with less risk, time and effort.

i see very few litters of 8 of $400 bluetick puppies sold at 8 weeks old. if the pups do haev that much of demand there is probally alot of quality behind it and in such a inexact science as breeding dogs, whose to say that cross wouldnt turn out any better than another stud that could have been chosen

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Posted by on 02-23-2010 06:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Or....

Use my own stud.. I feed him, I trained him, I campaigned him....and I pay him up in "programs" to the tune of several hundred dollars each year. Use my own female...I feed her, I trained her, I campaigned her....and I raise a litter off her ever couple of years. There is a "cost of ownership" factor that you are not taking into account. As a breeder, I keep more breeding age dogs than I can hunt, and I'm usually hunting a young dog anyway. Why keep them if I'm not going to breed them? Not any different than a cattle farmer keeping a bull, and a herd of cows...there is "cost of ownership".

Okay..next...Shots.

My current vaccination schedule is a straight Parvo shot at 5 weeks old. I get these in a 10 dose bottle for $35.00 plus shipping, so round it up to $40.00....that right there is $4.00 a shot. At 6, 8, 10, and 12 weeks...my pups get a 5 way vaccine. I buy these in a 25 dose pack, $71.29, shipping another $20.00 (next day air). That makes it just over $3.65 a dose, times 4, for a grand total of $14.60, plus the $4.00 for Parvo....I've got $18.60 in vaccine for each pup.

Next, wormer. I start worming my pups at 2 weeks old. I start them on Nemex...$59.99 for 16 ounces. Pups are wormed at 2,3,4,5,6 weeks with Nemex. Average litter uses a whole bottle, then I switch to Panacur at 8, 10, and 12 weeks. Safeguard goat wormer is $25.00 a bottle for 150CC, and this will do an average litter for 3 doses. I have $84.99 in worming the litter. Using your average litter of 8, that is $10.62 per pup in worming.

So now...I have about $30.00 in worming and vaccine in each pup....time to register them.

UKC litter registration :$20.00
UKC Performance Nomination : $25.00

Another $45.00 total. Or $5.62 per pup. Total per pup so far.....$35.62

AKC Registration: $25.00 Processing fee, plus $2.00 Per pup
AKC "program" $25.00

Total: $66.00

PKC Registration: $7.00 + $3.00 per pup

Total: $31.00, or $3.87 per pup.
(This does not include PKC SS registrations)

When I raise a litter of pups, there are some expenses for the female. She gets a good worming before she is bred, two, four, and six weeks after she is bred with the same Panacur. That means another $25.00. I feed the female puppy chow, and give her Nutri-tabs every day from the time she is bred ($24.99 for Vitamins, and $104.97 for gestational puppy chow.)

Total for Momma: $154.96
Add in the Brucellosis test: $45.00 and we are up to $199.96

Stud Fee: $400.00.

I now have $996.72 invested in this litter of 8 pups and I've not fed them a kernel of feed. I don't sell pups before they are at the VERY YOUNGEST 8 weeks old, and prefer to keep them until they are 12 weeks old. I feed Purina Puppy chow, at a minimum, and at $34.00 a bag, I'll use five bags total from the time they are ready to eat, until 8 pups are delivered to new owners. Rougly another $170.00.

If they are all healthy, don't need a trip to the vet and we don't count the other expenses involved as "incidental"...I have $1165.72 invested in this litter of pups, or $145.71 per pup.

Now...I don't sell very many pups out of a litter of 8 pups for $400.00, more along the lines of $250 to $300.

Are you telling me that I'm not entitled to make a profit on pups after I have all of the time and expense invested. Sure you can raise pups "on the cheap"....but as has been shown here, you can raise a litter of unregisterable pups, give them one shot, one worming, and charge $100.00 for em....Give me a break.

I have no problem at all with folks making money off pups, the way you did it is the right way, yes it does cost more and no its not all necessary, but the better way to go...but people that sell pups, that may or may not have had all that money sunk in them, and put big prices on them, and then get indignant and claim they have that much money in the pups...that is what I believe is BS...

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-23-2010 06:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ki4qpu
I still blame the breeder if the pups don't turn out. And again I say..

You use to be able to take any coonhound pup, and it be atleast a natural enough to put a coon up a tree.

Maybe you thought you made a point, but it's still a money game and it's up to the breeder to make the dog. A real dog should need little help to make atleast an average dog.

Sir,

I have no quarrel with you but as someone who's been breeding dogs for several years....and hunting for nearly 40 years. I don't necessarily buy into your statements.

Used to be, if you had a "pup" that was 2 years old and got treed, and stayed treed consistently...you had the world by the tail. If you had one that would do so every time you turned loose...you had a world beater.

I've bought back, or got back many pups that were bred right here on my farm. Some had been starved nearly to death, others had been beaten...some had been ignored, some had never been out of the kennel by the time they were three years old. You can't tell me that you are gonna hold that against my stud dog cause they "didn't turn out". Some of the ones I got back were beyond repair, others go on to make dogs, can't say that I've gotten a world beater back out of that situation. The GOOD ones were the pups that went into "the right hands"....were nurtured and trained as pups, and go on to make fine hounds.

Given your own example, I can tell you that I would not breed "a good squirrel dog". Not interested in your money to breed my good coon treeing dog to a cross bred cur dog that trees squirrels.

I would say that you are simply shopping in the wrong places, looking at the wrong bloodlines, or fall short on training skills if you are striking out completely on getting a pup that will do something for you..either that... or you are incredibly unlucky.

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-23-2010 06:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Style
I have no problem at all with folks making money off pups, the way you did it is the right way, yes it does cost more and no its not all necessary, but the better way to go...but people that sell pups, that may or may not have had all that money sunk in them, and put big prices on them, and then get indignant and claim they have that much money in the pups...that is what I believe is BS...

So what you are saying is.....buyer beware.

That is not the "breeders" fault, it is the fault of all of the buyers that will pay top dollar for a paper bred pup that is too young to be away from Momma, hasn't had enough vaccine, and has been wormed once......

Geeze...it's always someone elses fault. That's like buying a used car that's never had an oil change and complaining that the dealership "ripped you off"......

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Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by on 02-23-2010 06:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
So what you are saying is.....buyer beware.

That is not the "breeders" fault, it is the fault of all of the buyers that will pay top dollar for a paper bred pup that is too young to be away from Momma, hasn't had enough vaccine, and has been wormed once......

Geeze...it's always someone elses fault. That's like buying a used car that's never had an oil change and complaining that the dealership "ripped you off"......

I believe that someone should do their research before buying, but sadly people are willing to take peoples word for things...all those trusting idiots...kinda sad its come to that

Posted by ki4qpu on 02-23-2010 06:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Travis Sawney
I'd like to find me one of those natural pups of yester year..

Get a mtn. cur . I hunted walkers for 15 years and I got tired of the crap we are talking about with breeding. They take very little training if any.

Look at blood hounds natural man hunters. Why is it natural it was bred into them. I don't care what kind of coonhound you take, wait until it is a year old see if it puts a coon up a tree without a lot of training. It's the breeders people, what little natural ability they have left is getting bred out for all grand papers.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-23-2010 06:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ki4qpu
Get a mtn. cur . I hunted walkers for 15 years and I got tired of the crap we are talking about with breeding. They take very little training if any.

Look at blood hounds natural man hunters. Why is it natural it was bred into them. I don't care what kind of coonhound you take, wait until it is a year old see if it puts a coon up a tree without a lot of training. It's the breeders people, what little natural ability they have left is getting bred out for all grand papers.

Oh come on now.....

Have you ever actually been a party to blood hounds "man hunting"? Having worked with search and rescue teams, having owned, trained, and worked with a working police trained GSD I'll take exception to your statement.

Good grief...I've worked with dogs all my life, hounds, beagles, border collies, pointers...and even the most naturally driven ones of the bunch took a WHOLE LOT of training in order to develop and nurture the natural instincts.

If genetics worked the way you think they do...we should be able to make Hitler proud and breed a super race of people. Children should start reading at age 5, without any schooling....after all, since most everyone can be trained to read, it should become instinct at some point and we should no longer even need elementary school.....jsut start high school at the age of 12....

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Posted by josh on 02-23-2010 06:46 PM:

These threads are always the same....

A few people cant figure out how to train a pup, so they start shooting from the hip at all the "breeders".

If your going through pup after pup, the problem just might not be the pup.

You dont HAVE to stud a dog.
You dont HAVE to breed a dog.
You dont HAVE to buy a "junk" pup.

These are all choices, if you want to complain, complain to the guy that made the choice.

Posted by ki4qpu on 02-23-2010 06:47 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oak Ridge
[B]Sir,

I have no quarrel with you but as someone who's been breeding dogs for several years....and hunting for nearly 40 years. I don't necessarily buy into your statements.

Thank you Sir,

It's totally fine we have conflicting opinions, thats why there is so many flavors of ice cream.

Some where down the line breeding became about money. Not good dogs. I'm not claiming in 1970 we all had world champions. But it was more often than not you found coonhounds and not the other way around. Now because it is a money game the quality of dogs has went down hill. I also have no quarrel with anyone.

My first post speaking directly was to christy. It was my opinion, and I was honest and sincere in my remarks. And which I feel is honesty is the best policy. And the point I was trying to make was just because your not the one raising the pups doesn't mean you don't effect the gene pool by breeding to jimmy joes no account dog.

And further more if I offended anyone I sincerely apologize, but still believe we should protect the very thing we love- coonhunting.

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 02-23-2010 07:38 PM:

How come everyone over looks the Cost of Keeping your breeding Stock..

Now if your talking about just a backyard breeder that only keeps 2-3 Adult hounds then yes he can make a little money on a litter.

But if your talking about a "Breeding Program" where a "Breeder" is keeping well over 10 hounds plus keeping Pups from each litter for testing.. Well I can Tell ya theirs No Money being "Made"
Its a Passion that a Breeder has Taken on.

A good Buyer is "Investing" in your Breeding Program and A Believer in What your doing.

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Posted by Travis Sawney on 02-23-2010 07:57 PM:

I wasnt around to make a proper analysis bout the hounds of the past but i have heard from hunters that know more than me and more than likely will always know more than me that the hounds of today are way easier to train and your chances of getting a coondog today are far greater than in the past. Just what i've aquired...

Posted by Larry Atherton on 02-23-2010 08:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ki4qpu
Some where down the line breeding became about money. Not good dogs. I'm not claiming in 1970 we all had world champions. But it was more often than not you found coonhounds and not the other way around. [/B]

Man, I don't know where you were in the 70s, but it took me 7 years to find a decent dog! And that was with help from a couple of old time coon hunters.

Click your shoes together and repeat there is no place like home there is no place like home ... it is time to wake up Dorthy.

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Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 02-23-2010 08:16 PM:

ki4qu:

You are looking at this all wrong. With all the junk out there that people are breeding and making big money on you are missing out on a huge business opportunity. A man with the kind of solutions you have could surely start collecting good females and breeding them to some barn burner males and start selling the quality of puppies we are all looking for. Its a gold mine just waiting to be tapped.

Let us know when you get started!!!!

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 02-23-2010 08:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Style
I believe that someone should do their research before buying, but sadly people are willing to take peoples word for things...all those trusting idiots...kinda sad its come to that

Sad people can't take a mans word for any thing any more. Even worse to read that people don't even think you should be able to take a mans word for something. No offence intended Matt just a sighn of the times I guess. That and being able to send pups all over the world. So you can sell crap and no body no. Use to you bought them local and if they cheated you everyone knew it.

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Posted by Darren barkman on 02-23-2010 08:45 PM:

Im not saying there's not junk beening breed we all know that's happening all over. But i do know not every pup makes a coon hound i was told a long time ago if your going to mess with pups you better beable to cull. there's to many guys worried about titles more than coon dogs. I know when i buy a pup i hunt with the dam and the sire to see if there something i would like. if they are coondogs then i will get a pup if its breed the way i want. i know there's alot more pups that don't make coon hounds than the one's that do. The one thing i think that hurt's us now more than ever is that there is less hide hunter's out there when most of the hide guys breed a dog they breed coon dog to coon dog period. I remember my dad telling me i don't if there pink as long it tree's coon. Im more worried about hardly nobody line breeds anymore in the walker's. If you want to line breed there's very few lines you can go with to do that. Trying to find a outcross well good luck.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 02-23-2010 08:49 PM:

I think as far as blameing the stud dog owners a person need to look at how UKC is set up and probubly the other clubs. Performance dogs I think have to have a certain number of pups on the ground to even apply. I don't kow the rules and how the programs work but I think some one that does could take a good luck at how it is set up and do a lot about any bitch showing up on the door step getting bred.
I would agree like all the rest that there is to much importantance put on the stud. The bitch has just as much to do with the pup as the stud and probubly more so in the female pups.

Posted by Cat and bear on 02-23-2010 08:50 PM:

walkers or coon hounds

I agree with some of you, pups cost money, because you had your stock. Training, etc. With that being said, lets talk walkers and coon dogs. Lets look in the mirror. Ok, Coon dogs talk about accuracy, barks per minute, lay up coon, etc. I never hear the term feet, which seem to be getting loose, or lets talk nose. I havent seen many advertised good feet and cold nose. its a money game, on which dog tree's a coon, honest or dishonest. So, us back yard breeders, like me, which cross grade trash as quoted, makes bear and cat dogs, with a high turnout because I've hunted five generations of them. They can smell a cat or bear, that a all grand whatever ,doesnt know is there. They can run it, bay it on the ground, for hours, and tree it, or staple the cuts, and go next week. So, when the coon dog breeders, can breed dogs, that can do this, And smell a track over a few hours old, I wont have to worry about breeding my trash, to tree a bear, or cat. We all hunt different things folks, but nose is leaving the walker breed, that doesnt breed for cold nose, only competiton. I put a post on here, a year or so ago, and got two replies of cold nosed walkers. Both were old guys, registered dogs, but not competiton hunted. None of the well known stud dogs got suggested to me. I have an idea, tomorrow, I will leave my one registered walker at home and take the papers hunting, and see what I put on the table . .

Posted by Family on 02-23-2010 08:55 PM:

Thats funny we sold 2 pups off of the internet out of the last litter to the same guy.

5pups to 5 different people out of the local penny press newspaper.

1 was traded for a goat. thats now been bred to our billly.

and we cleared 90$ on the litter after ALL WAS PAID and done with. n I kept 2 females.

sold a finished dog 2-3 months later out of same paper for 500$ to the first guy who came n tried him nice guy in his 60's...2 year old out of comas stylish legend and skuna river fred...done trainin him didnt need him....

The internet is a bunch of kids n tirekickers who dont have any money. oh and dont forget cry babies...75%-99% of the time.

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Posted by John D on 02-23-2010 09:08 PM:

Lets say you raised 2 litters. Everything is identical, cost wise. The only difference is that Female A has never been taken to a nite hunt. Female B is a GrNtCh.

Now we all know the title doesn't change the genetics. We'll hope the best and assume that Female A is just as much a coondog.

But, compare the cost that the extra hunting, miles, and gas that it took to get Female B proven honestly, and by the rules, to this level. Its in the hundreds, if not thousands of dollars.

Isn't this worth something extra in her pups? Female A's pups might make her owner more money priced at $200 each than Female B's pups priced at $350 because Female A never had all the expense of being taken to comp. hunts.

Even then why is it a crime to make some money? For ANY other activity I can think of, if you are good at it, you stand to make more money than someone that sucks at it. Why should producing coonhounds be any different? Do you want to drive away the ones that are good at it, to take up some other hobby? Where will the future of your precious sport be, then?

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 02-23-2010 11:03 PM:

So why title the stud? No differance than the bitch. $150 differance in pups @ 8 pups per litter = $1200.00 per litter differance. Don't know what it would cost to ntch or grntch a bitch so can't say one way or another. My guess is if the bitch is good 2-3 litters should do it.

Posted by coldtrail on 02-23-2010 11:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Style
I have no problem at all with folks making money off pups, the way you did it is the right way, yes it does cost more and no its not all necessary, but the better way to go...but people that sell pups, that may or may not have had all that money sunk in them, and put big prices on them, and then get indignant and claim they have that much money in the pups...that is what I believe is BS...

If its the right way why would you buy pups from someone that does it the wrong way???????????????

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