UKC Forums - Rules question

Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »
Show all 58 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Rules question (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=336382)

Posted by chuckydw on 02-22-2010 03:10 AM:

With all due respect gfults if I had been 200 yards from her we never would have known she moved. It was about a ten second span from one tree to the next. And they layed the coon up in the first place. And no she's not perfect and if you have a perfect one I would be more than interested in buying it.

Posted by gfults on 02-22-2010 03:34 AM:

200 yards was not meant to be taken literally. The point was if you were far enough you didnt know they were on same tree. Also I wasnt trying to put her down at all. What I meant was any dog in general. Ive seen it so many times where people blame something a dog did wrong on everything except the dog. That dog made my dog run a deer or whatever. They aint tied together.

Posted by on 02-22-2010 03:37 AM:

chucky,
Don't get me wrong. Its just one of those things. You can't take it back. If that was allowed it would open up a whole can of worms.

Posted by on 02-22-2010 03:43 AM:

chuck, the part you are missing is that once you tree them, they MUST stay treed. Even if you tree her on a previously scored tree, she still must stay there till handled. THEN you delete her strike and tree. But if the dog is declared treed and moves before being handled, the dog is minused. Even if you know it is on a previously scored tree.

Posted by MTN VALLEY HANK on 02-22-2010 03:44 AM:

minus

you said it yourself. dog a moved

__________________
Competition or pleasure? Sport or memories? I think it's all about the memories you make for a lifetime.

Posted by on 02-22-2010 03:47 AM:

Did she leave the tree? Both of the trees were scored as one originally. So she didnt leave the tree because they were considered the same tree.

Posted by on 02-22-2010 03:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Joey
Did she leave the tree? Both of the trees were scored as one originally. So she didnt leave the tree because they were considered the same tree.

But it was never known where she was treed the 2nd time. It is believed to be part of the previously scored tree but not determined until after the fact.

Posted by on 02-22-2010 03:58 AM:

It is a good argument and a valid question. But it is a question it was scored properly in the woods. If I was a handler and the call was changed in the woods I'd question it being changed. If I was a MOH and then was presented to me as chucky has presented it here, the call in the woods would stand.

Posted by gfults on 02-22-2010 04:07 AM:

2 trees that are "scored" as one tree does not mean its one tree. It means that the 2 trees touch and a coon could cross out. The reason you score as one is when dogs are treed on both trees when you score them and the coon can cross out. Its still 2 trees and just cause they touch does not justify a dog moving from one to another. If a limb breaks and falls out and they no longer touch they can now be scored as 2. Dont make much sense to reward a dog for moving just cause 2 trees are touching.

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by longshot on 02-22-2010 04:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Joey
Did she leave the tree? Both of the trees were scored as one originally. So she didnt leave the tree because they were considered the same tree.

The problem is that she was minused for moving.. Even the handler acknowledged that. Once that is done , its over and can't be undone.. He got a very bad break , like a bad hop on a ground ball.. The runs still count...

If he would have called a vote about it being the previous scored tree AT THE TIME OF THE MINUS , the outcome might have been differant.

Chalk it up to lessons learned... I've had to do that many times myself...

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by gfults on 02-22-2010 04:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
The problem is that she was minused for moving.. Even the handler acknowledged that. Once that is done , its over and can't be undone.. He got a very bad break , like a bad hop on a ground ball.. The runs still count...

If he would have called a vote about it being the previous scored tree AT THE TIME OF THE MINUS , the outcome might have been differant.

Chalk it up to lessons learned... I've had to do that many times myself...

If it was called to a vote at that time it should still be minused. You cant outvote a rule.

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by on 02-22-2010 04:16 AM:

If you didn't see what tree the dog was on then you would have to minuse it. If you saw it on the tree that was scored as one tree then you might have a vote but you rarely win votes after you already said minuse my dog. IT TRUELY WAS A BAD BREAK!

Posted by gfults on 02-22-2010 04:32 AM:

I dont understand how voting could help not getting minused. Rule 4c: Points will be minused when a dog has been declared treed and dog leaves tree. In this situation a dog was declared treed and it left the tree went 10 yards and treed on another tree.

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by on 02-22-2010 04:36 AM:

Gfults, you're correct but I think what they were suggesting is that had the judge minused the dog and the handler suggested voting on it, the cast may have seen it differently (or just not had the backbone to enforce the rule) and allowed it so slide as it was the same previously scored tree (although it was 2 trees, originally scored as one). Whatever. You get what I'm saying.

But, if the handler is going to suggest his dog be minused, I highly doubt any cast member is going to disagree with him.

Posted by Skull Bones on 02-22-2010 04:36 AM:

Sounds like another situation that can take the fun out of comp. hunting.I was'nt there,but going by what I read and thinking out loud,it seems to me dog A was treeing a coon that had already been scored, along with dogs B & C,regardless of where you think the coon climbed.Dog A was probaly wind'in the coon tell'in ya where he was at and where he climbed or could of been two coons.Either way the dog was not lie'in, so why would you minus/fail a dog thats doing what its supposed to.Everybody knows the rules say to minus a dog for leaving the tree,but thats for leaving the coon that the dogs done told you was in the tree.The rule book can't give nobody any common sence thats why it's the judge's decision or a majority vote!The fair thing would have been to delet points for going back to coon/tree that had been scored!

__________________
Skull Bone Kennels
Greg "Cowboy"Birmingham
398 Birmingham Ln.
Monroe,N.C. 28110
704-507-0673

"IN MEMORY OF"- NtCh PKC-Ch Little Miss Bighead "Kate"-KEEP'EM TREED ABOVE US OL'GIRL
GrChNtCh Skull Bones Sassy Aftr "Midnite" ( GrNtCh PKC-GCh Timber Magic Victor x NtCh Paynes Black Diann)
GrCh Skull Bones Set'em Up "Banjo" (GrNtCh Dark Hollow Slam x 'PR Horn's Set'em Up Lady)
'PR' Skull Bones Light'n "Lilly" (Ch 'PR' Smithurst's Medicine Man x Ch 'PR' Smithurst Midnight Babe)
NtCh Tenn Screamin "Molly" (NtCh Ch Sundown Ragin Moonshine x 'PR' Tn Wheeling Maggie) Half owner with Brian Kelly

Posted by on 02-22-2010 04:43 AM:

This reminds me of a cast I guided last fall. I wasn't hunting, just guiding.

4 dog cast, all dogs struck. 2 dogs ( Dog A & B) load up on a tree along a fencerow about 150 yards in front of the cast. 2 other dogs (Dogs C & D) head deeper along the field.
Dog B pulls off the tree and is clearly opening heading to Dogs C & D. Dog A may have opened off the tree but never left. Handlers A & B both suggest they're dogs left and were minused. Immediately after Dog A goes right back to treeing and is re-treed. It isn't clear if she ever left. She may have barked off the tree, but never left it. Maybe put her feet back on the ground and barked. Again the "canopy" thing.
Dogs C, D, & B were treed much deeper. Dog A was retreed at the original tree. Cast allowed Handler A to handle his dog as the rest of the cast proceeded to score the others. As the handler was attempting to get in and handle Dog A it was obvious there was a lot of debri, brush, vines, & etc making it tough for a dog to actually tree "on the tree".
Cast believed the dog never did move, but it was too late to go back and change it. Both trees had coon.
Another bad break. It happens.

Posted by gfults on 02-22-2010 05:11 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Skull Bones
Sounds like another situation that can take the fun out of comp. hunting.I was'nt there,but going by what I read and thinking out loud,it seems to me dog A was treeing a coon that had already been scored, along with dogs B & C,regardless of where you think the coon climbed.Dog A was probaly wind'in the coon tell'in ya where he was at and where he climbed or could of been two coons.Either way the dog was not lie'in, so why would you minus/fail a dog thats doing what its supposed to.Everybody knows the rules say to minus a dog for leaving the tree,but thats for leaving the coon that the dogs done told you was in the tree.The rule book can't give nobody any common sence thats why it's the judge's decision or a majority vote!The fair thing would have been to delet points for going back to coon/tree that had been scored!

It makes alot more common sense to me to minus them for going back anyway. Going back to a tree is a mistake. That coons already been treed, now go tree another coon. Any dog that makes a mistake like that should be minused.

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by Jack Bingham on 02-22-2010 05:13 AM:

i minused a dog at the zones last year that minused him out when we were walking into the tree the dog came off the tree and barked on the ground (20-30 yrds) in which the handler handled the dog we got to tree it was a previously scored tree. the point is the dog left tree so it deserves it's minus.

__________________
JACK BINGHAM
MOSQUITO CREEK REDBONES
641-750-4457

A screw up on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

HOME OF

GRNitech PKC Platinum CH PR Mosquito Creek Danno's Buggs 2018 American Redbone Champion. 2019 World Champion Female. 2020 PURINA NATIONALS CH.

GRNITE CH Mosquito Creek Hank 2020 and 2022 top 100

Platinum CH GRNITE CH Jersey Girl 2020 Top 100

R.I.P.
GRNitech PKC CH GRCH Awesome Mosquito Crk. Lick 2016 World Champion Redbone Female

Look us up on Facebook: Mosquito Creek Redbones

Posted by jculler8 on 02-22-2010 05:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by chuckydw
Brogy you are absolutely right in one aspect. It was scored as one tree the first time around. But the reason that we were standing 30 yards from the tree had nothing to do with any uncertainty about it being the same tree. The reason was because you are supposed to make every effort to be at the tree as soon as the five minutes is up. We walked to within 30 yards of the tree and had no idea that they were on the same tree.

This is a very good topic. Allen maybe for Bloodlines? Can a judge go back and overturn a ruling or scoring after it is made obvious? How long is too long to go back and change?

__________________
OAKS POINT KENNELS

HOME OF

PKC CH GRNITECH GRCH 'PR' OAKS POINT COON BUSTIN' BELLE HTX 2013 UKC Top 100 (May 2006-January 2017)

'PR' OAKS POINT STRIKE-EM OUT BEAU (May 2006-June 2016)

PKC CH NITECH GRCH 'PR' COON BUSTIN' WHITE STUFF

CH 'PR' GOLD RUSH EXPO

'PR' BLACK KNIGHT'S BALU JETTA (May 2013-October 2015)

CH 'PR' CHERRY CREEK XBOX 2016 Treeing Walker Days King of Show

Posted by gfults on 02-22-2010 05:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by brogy
This reminds me of a cast I guided last fall. I wasn't hunting, just guiding.

4 dog cast, all dogs struck. 2 dogs ( Dog A & B) load up on a tree along a fencerow about 150 yards in front of the cast. 2 other dogs (Dogs C & D) head deeper along the field.
Dog B pulls off the tree and is clearly opening heading to Dogs C & D. Dog A may have opened off the tree but never left. Handlers A & B both suggest they're dogs left and were minused. Immediately after Dog A goes right back to treeing and is re-treed. It isn't clear if she ever left. She may have barked off the tree, but never left it. Maybe put her feet back on the ground and barked. Again the "canopy" thing.
Dogs C, D, & B were treed much deeper. Dog A was retreed at the original tree. Cast allowed Handler A to handle his dog as the rest of the cast proceeded to score the others. As the handler was attempting to get in and handle Dog A it was obvious there was a lot of debri, brush, vines, & etc making it tough for a dog to actually tree "on the tree".
Cast believed the dog never did move, but it was too late to go back and change it. Both trees had coon.
Another bad break. It happens.

If a judge had minused me for what you just described, they wouldve had to call the National Guard to come get me off of him. If the dog was believed to have barked with his feet off the tree but was still treeing at the original tree, why would anybody have ever agreed to allow themselves to be minused?

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by jculler8 on 02-22-2010 05:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Joey
Did she leave the tree? Both of the trees were scored as one originally. So she didnt leave the tree because they were considered the same tree.

That's a good question?

Posted by gfults on 02-22-2010 05:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
This is a very good topic. Allen maybe for Bloodlines? Can a judge go back and overturn a ruling or scoring after it is made obvious? How long is too long to go back and change?

Its irrelevant whether or not the cast knew it was the same tree or not. IT DOES NOT MATTER! THE DOG WAS DECLARED TREED! THE DOG MOVED AND TREED ON ANOTHER TREE! RULE 4C SAYS MINUS!

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by gfults on 02-22-2010 05:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Joey
Did she leave the tree? Both of the trees were scored as one originally. So she didnt leave the tree because they were considered the same tree.

2 things yall are not understanding. #1 The trees were not considered the same tree, they are 2 trees scored as one. If a tree trunk came out of the ground and split 2 or 3 feet up making 2 trees then that would be considered 2 trees. These 2 were across a creek from one another, 2 trees. #2 It DONT MATTER if the dog went back to a previously scored tree. The handler declared him treed and the dog left and went and treed on a different tree. Thats all that matters.

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by jculler8 on 02-22-2010 05:28 AM:

You guys said you went and scored another tree and then went back? Then who's to say the coon didn't climb across and go down and then get ran back up? Which dog is right, which is wrong? You guys gotta understand, this cold weather coons don't like crossin creeks, they'd rather climb across. I know atleast around here, you always see coons on bridges this time of year!

I'm with Skull Bones on this one. I know some say chalk it up as a bad break, but also in UKC a dog can never be penalized for returning to a previously scored tree. Heck if they want, they can go back 100 times.

Posted by gfults on 02-22-2010 05:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
You guys said you went and scored another tree and then went back? Then who's to say the coon didn't climb across and go down and then get ran back up? Which dog is right, which is wrong? You guys gotta understand, this cold weather coons don't like crossin creeks, they'd rather climb across. I know atleast around here, you always see coons on bridges this time of year!

I'm with Skull Bones on this one. I know some say chalk it up as a bad break, but also in UKC a dog can never be penalized for returning to a previously scored tree. Heck if they want, they can go back 100 times.

They can be if they are declared treed on it and they leave the tree! UKC's rule on not scratching dogs for going back to a tree is just another rule to accommodate the weaker dog. Instead of breaking dogs from bad habits they make it so that it wont count against them in a hunt!

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:31 AM.

Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »
Show all 58 posts from this thread on one page